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Old 12-12-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASULAR17 View Post
The only thing I believe is predestined is prophecy and the suffering and death of Jesus for mankinds
sins past present and future. Adam and Eve were given a choice and we are given choices based on an intellect,will and wisdom directing our path. The tools are given us and our destiny based on the word of God. Heaven or hell awaits us contingent on decisions,path and judgement based outcome
the later a one on one with God. Don't let pride and non-supernatural philosophies lead to an eternal
error.
That is interesting, How can the non-believer believe when he is dead in sin? the bible says we are all sinners and want nothing to do with righteousness, if that is the case then how will we make the right decision unless we are regenerated spiritually?
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:34 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Let's look at this in more detail:

Rom 4:3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him--to righteousness;'

Gal 3:6 according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him--to righteousness;

It was reckoned to Abraham when he believed God. Abraham's being declared righteous (justification) occurred at the cross. There is a difference between the two words and the two events: Reckoned and Declared Righteous. For those born (or regenerated) before the cross, reckoning precedes the declaration. For those born (or regenerated) after the cross, reckoning follows the declaration.

Another point to be made here: Justification (being declared righteous) at the cross is for the sinner, not only believers, per se. Paul (rather Saul) was justified at the cross, but did not become a believer until regenerated by the Spirit, in time. We know Saul heard the Gospel when Stephen was being stoned, and rejected it. But God had already declared Saul to be justified (declared righteous) due to Christ's death and resurrection for him. But this righteousness was not reckoned to Saul (now Paul) until faith.
it is because God Chose people from the foundation and at His appointed times, Called them through regeneration of the sprit by the Spirit...I see time as applying to us, not to God, the beginning and the end are all God's now, so, in essence, everything is already completed from God's standpoint, but unfolds in time from our standpoint...
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I find it interesting that the OT scripture that Paul refers to, in the Hebrew, has the definition of hate (נשׂנא) thus, but, as it is written in the Greek, the Greek word (μισέω) is defined so...In the Hebrew it is saying God hated Esau, and in the Greek it is saying that He loved him less...
Well, the Hebrew word hate (Hebrew Strongs 8130) also means to love less:

Gen 29:30 And he goeth in also unto Rachel, and he also loveth Rachel more than Leah; and he serveth with him yet seven other years.
Gen 29:31 And Jehovah seeth that Leah is the hated (Strongs #8130) one, and He openeth her womb, and Rachel is barren;
Gen 29:32 and Leah conceiveth, and beareth a son, and calleth his name Reuben, for she said, `Because Jehovah hath looked on mine affliction; because now doth my husband love me.'
Gen 29:33 And she conceiveth again, and beareth a son, and saith, `Because Jehovah hath heard that I am the hated (Strongs #8130) one, He also giveth to me even this one ;' and she calleth his name Simeon.
Gen 29:34 And she conceiveth again, and beareth a son, and saith, `Now is the time, my husband is joined unto me, because I have born to him three sons,' therefore hath one called his name Levi.
Gen 29:35 And she conceiveth again, and beareth a son, and saith this time, `I praise Jehovah;' therefore hath she called his name Judah; and she ceaseth from bearing.

That Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah is conceded. But you know what, Jacob had no qualms about havin' a good romp in the sack with Leah too, now did he?...LOL And you know what, I bet he was lovin' it....LOL

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-12-2009 at 01:05 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
it is because God Chose people from the foundation and at His appointed times, Called them through regeneration of the sprit by the Spirit...I see time as applying to us, not to God, the beginning and the end are all God's now, so, in essence, everything is already completed from God's standpoint, but unfolds in time from our standpoint...
Amen to that!
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
...in essence, everything is already completed from God's standpoint, but unfolds in time from our standpoint...
Here is a great scripture passage that says exactly that:

1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Well, the Hebrew word hate (Hebrew Strongs 8130) also means to love less:

Gen 29:30 And he goeth in also unto Rachel, and he also loveth Rachel more than Leah; and he serveth with him yet seven other years.
Gen 29:31 And Jehovah seeth that Leah is the hated (Strongs #8130) one, and He openeth her womb, and Rachel is barren;
Gen 29:32 and Leah conceiveth, and beareth a son, and calleth his name Reuben, for she said, `Because Jehovah hath looked on mine affliction; because now doth my husband love me.'
Gen 29:33 And she conceiveth again, and beareth a son, and saith, `Because Jehovah hath heard that I am the hated (Strongs #8130) one, He also giveth to me even this one ;' and she calleth his name Simeon.
Gen 29:34 And she conceiveth again, and beareth a son, and saith, `Now is the time, my husband is joined unto me, because I have born to him three sons,' therefore hath one called his name Levi.
Gen 29:35 And she conceiveth again, and beareth a son, and saith this time, `I praise Jehovah;' therefore hath she called his name Judah; and she ceaseth from bearing.

That Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah is conceded. But you know what, Jacob had no qualms about havin' a good romp in the sack with Leah too, now did he?...LOL And you know what, I bet he was lovin' it....LOL
H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

This does not say love less as does the greek word's definition...

G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful)...
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

This does not say love less as does the greek word's definition...

G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful)...
How do you explain the word "hate" (Strongs 8130) when used of Leah compared to Rachael. The scripture says Rachael was loved more. But this IMO implies that Leah was also loved, but not as much. Jacob loved Rachael more.

Deu 21:15 `When a man hath two wives, the one loved and the other hated, and they have borne to him sons (the loved one and the hated one), and the first-born son hath been to the hated one;
Deu 21:16 then it hath been, in the day of his causing his sons to inherit that which he hath, he is not able to declare first-born the son of the loved one, in the face of the son of the hated one--the first-born.
Deu 21:17 But the first-born, son of the hated one, he doth acknowledge, to give to him a double portion of all that is found with him, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him is the right of the first-born.

It's interesting that even the first-born of the hated one, received a double portion of the inheritance! So much for hating even the first and second generations!
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Taken from a cultural standpoint, in Gen 29:31, the literal Hebrew is rendered: "and God saw that hated was Leah," for example, "God saw that Leah was hated." Yet, in this same context, the whole point is that Leah is able to bear sons to Jacob. It would be a strange hate for Jacob to continue to share a bed with a woman so hated by him, I know I wouldn't Contextually speaking, it is most likely represents one who is less favored than another (which has happened to me on several occasions when I used to drink , and it appears the same happened to Jacob at the wedding party when he slept with her )....other translations have rightlfully applied שנא

The Hebrew word שנא and the Greek word μισεω both have semantic ranges that exceed that of the English word "hate".

In Genesis 29:31, the following versions render the Greek μισεω and Hebrew שנא by English words other than "hate".

NIV: "not loved"
REB: "unloved"
NRSV: "unloved
NASB: "unloved"

Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-12-2009 at 04:29 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
.. and it appears the same happened to Jacob at the wedding party when he slept with her )....
Once: OK. Twice: shame on him. Three times: what's goin' on here? Four times: that's called lovin' in my book!

4 sons
were born to him, and no telling how many daughters. And no telling how many times to get there...LOL A strange "hate" indeed.
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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Richard - We've got Seattle, Southern Cal and your time zone (where ever that is), ready to sync up for some fellowship smoke. If you get this message, let me know when..LOL
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