U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-21-2009, 05:17 PM
 
37,614 posts, read 25,300,228 times
Reputation: 5860

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He is not speaking about everyone here, although Christ did die for all mankind, but mankind needs to come to Christ.
Scripture has spiritual import . . . not mere recording of worldly events. Christ came to ALL humankind for ALL humankind and His Holy Spirit is within us ALL to guide us in understanding what God has "written in our hearts." We accept Christ when we follow His promptings within by remorse (repentance) and rejection of our sinful (selfish, unloving) urges.THAT is how we come to Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-21-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 9,370,657 times
Reputation: 1979
A distinctive issue in Calvinist theology that often is used to represent the whole is the system's particular soteriology, its doctrine of salvation. This doctrine holds that humans are incapable of adding anything to obtain salvation and that God alone is the initiator at every stage of salvation
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 05:48 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,289 posts, read 20,026,374 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
A distinctive issue in Calvinist theology that often is used to represent the whole is the system's particular soteriology, its doctrine of salvation. This doctrine holds that humans are incapable of adding anything to obtain salvation and that God alone is the initiator at every stage of salvation
But unfortunately they talk as though they have earnt it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,293,726 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Scripture has spiritual import . . . not mere recording of worldly events. Christ came to ALL humankind for ALL humankind and His Holy Spirit is within us ALL to guide us in understanding what God has "written in our hearts." We accept Christ when we follow His promptings within by remorse (repentance) and rejection of our sinful (selfish, unloving) urges.THAT is how we come to Christ.
We come to Christ by Christ. You don't receive salvation by just being there. Sorry brother, but the premise of UR that you and others assert is incorrect. There is much more to being the recipient of salvation than just Christ atoning sacrifice for all mankind. It is your job to secure that salvation that has been freely given to you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
We come to Christ by Christ. You don't receive salvation by just being there. Sorry brother, but the premise of UR that you and others assert is incorrect. There is much more to being the recipient of salvation than just Christ atoning sacrifice for all mankind. It is your job to secure that salvation that has been freely given to you.
I posted this a million times before (I exaggerate) but I will try to show you the UR position I take with this analogy...

I want to give you a free gift so I go to the utility company and pay your bill for you. To the utility company the bill is paid. To me the gift is given. You can deny or reject the gift but the payment is made so neither the utility company or I care whether you reject it or not. The transaction is between me and the utility company and you have no say in it. The utility company will not return my payment simply because you reject my gift.

Now you can ignore that I paid it but the utility company will still credit your account.

Likewise, Jesus provided payment to God for our sins. the transaction is between God and Jesus, not us.

You are saying that Jesus paid our debt to God by giving us the payment and we can apply it if we choose but that is not what the bible says. The bible says that God required payment and accepted Jesus as that payment. That means that our sins are paid for. If you ignore the payment that doesn't change that the debt no longer exists.

Does that make sense?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,124,426 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
We come to Christ by Christ. You don't receive salvation by just being there. Sorry brother, but the premise of UR that you and others assert is incorrect. There is much more to being the recipient of salvation than just Christ atoning sacrifice for all mankind. It is your job to secure that salvation that has been freely given to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Scripture has spiritual import . . . not mere recording of worldly events. Christ came to ALL humankind for ALL humankind and His Holy Spirit is within us ALL to guide us in understanding what God has "written in our hearts." We accept Christ when we follow His promptings within by remorse (repentance) and rejection of our sinful (selfish, unloving) urges.THAT is how we come to Christ.


Hmmmm.... how else does one secure their salvation other than by following the promptings of Christ and killing our carnal man? I think Mystic is dead on and would love to hear how you "secured" your salvation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 06:55 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,289 posts, read 20,026,374 times
Reputation: 2110
I was just wandering where it says it's our job to secure our salvation.

The first thing that came to mind was the children of Israel at the Red Sea and they were told "Stand still and see the Salvation of God" , in otherwords do nothing .

They sang "The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation". Exodus 15 verse 2
He became their salvation by ? "standing still and seeing" , we all have this moment in our lives when salvation comes to us.

Luke 19

9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.


"Today Salvation has come" And when it comes it comes , His salvation becomes a reality to us.

Salvation begins and ends with God , He's the Author and Finisher of it . Hebrews 12 verse 2

Yes i know confession is made unto Salvation but it is God that brings us to confession . Romans 2 verse 4 .

Matthew 16


15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Last edited by pcamps; 10-21-2009 at 07:20 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 07:46 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,208,545 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
We come to Christ by Christ. You don't receive salvation by just being there. Sorry brother, but the premise of UR that you and others assert is incorrect. There is much more to being the recipient of salvation than just Christ atoning sacrifice for all mankind. It is your job to secure that salvation that has been freely given to you.

Now this is an Oxymoron ... Or a dichotomy in the very least ...

Christ is our secrurity in that he saved us, but we must secure for ourselves salvation by choosing to believe in Christ?

Yet Christ says this ...

Jhn 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

And Paul more fully delineates the idea in ...

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that(faith) not of yourselves: it(faith) is the gift of God:

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rom 9:10-20
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy ...

So it is obvious that the only reason why Christians believe is because we were elected and God compelled us through his spirit to believe. Our faith is a gift and we were elected before we were ever born to this office.

I mean, the very Greek word that is translated as church in the new testament is ecclesia, which means "the chosen few" or "the elected", not the "few that chose" or "those that elect" ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,293,726 times
Reputation: 420
Ironmaw...I like your story...but you forgot the ending....yeah the bill got paid, but your credit is bad...therefore you can't get utilities until you clear your credit...you do that by coming to Christ
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2009, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,293,726 times
Reputation: 420
On securing your salvation...now please UR campers..read the verses carefully so you understand them...but I wil repeat myself cuz I like all of you: This is from the Lake of Fire thread:

Quote:
Let's talk about salvation. We know Christ died for all mankind, lost and righteous. So now let's look at he various verses in scripture about salvation.

The apex of Christ's completed work is His sacrificial death.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

The believer can confess "I was saved when Jesus died for me"
Christ's present saving work primarily concerns Christ's role as mediator:

Roma 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

God's saving work involves conviction of sin:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Repentance from sin to God:

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Faith in commitment to Christ:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Confession as Christ as Lord:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Scripture describes these acts as a new birth:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

A New Creation:

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Adoption:

Rom :15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Empowerment to be God's children:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Salvation is a free gift of God appropriated through faith:

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Saving faith is, however, obedient faith:

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

No individual merits salvation by fulfillment of God's law:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Assurance of salvation is grounded in confidence that God is able to finish the good work that has begun in us:

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Folks, there is alot more about salvation than just the sacrifice of Christ for all mankind. Mankind must come to Christ to recieve that salvation or else he is destined for wrath and punishment. If one goes about their life without coming to Christ, he is destined for that wrath. The sacrifice of Christ was made available to all mankind, but all mankind, as we have seen over the last 2000 years, have not. Those in this life that deny Christ will be forever separated from God as if He never heard them:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal (AIONIOS) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Tim 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The Bible is very clear that there is a Heaven and Hell and that both of them, are used in the context of "eternal/AIONIOS". Like I said previously in other posts, if we were to follow the same logic for an eternal/AIONIOS hell as being a temporary purging and cleasing of the human soul, then Heaven eternal/AIONIOS is only temporary as well. This logic collapses on itself from hollow ground.

I have shown above that salvation is finished in Christ's redemptive work, however, it is up to the believer's walk from his regeneration to secure that salvation. The Lord can "blot out names" wrtten in the book, is He so pleases.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This rang true in the latter half of the first century, noted the seven letters to the churches, and this very verse above was directed at he Sardis church, who members were in danger of being removed from the Book of Life. The case for Universal Reconciliation is a noble one, but is only supported by selected texts of the scripture, when in contrast it is balanced evenly out by many verses in scripture that set the conditions of salvation to be laid on the shoulders of the one that is saved. God regenrates you into salvation for His purpose, but it is up to you to secure it.

Hebrew 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top