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To be clear, you are free to think of me as Satan incarnate and hate my guts with a purple passion if you so choose.
In answer to your question, I can say that man's natural state is reprobation because we are all sinners. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
It's actually a simple concept and doesn't require any in depth sort of critical thinking.
Here's some backup:
Luke 3:17 -- His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Isaiah 43:4 -- Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give men in exchange for you, and people in exchange for your life.
Proverbs 21:18 -- The wicked become a ransom for the righteous, and the unfaithful for the upright.
"They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade." --John Calvin
"Unregenerate elect people will not ultimately experience God's wrath for their sins, because they will come to Christ. Romans 9:22-23 says "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...?" Unregenerate elect people cannot serve this purpose of making known to the elect the riches of God's glorious grace, because they are not vessels prepared for destruction. For God to make known to the elect his grace in saving them from the just wrath deserved for their sin, it seems necessary for some people to receive the wrath deserved for their sin, and this purpose would only be served by the reprobate, not unregenerate elect." - Dan Dorman
Member of Pilgrim OPC in my hometown-Bangor, Maine
Currently attending Christ the King OPC in Longview, Texas, where I am a college student
"To our mind, either everything or nothing must be held in subjection to the will and providence of God. Even the wickedness of ungodly men is restricted by predestination, so that the wrath of man shall praise God, and the remainder of wrath He will restrain." - GILBERT BEEBE (1800-1881)
For one, we don't know who the reprobate are...but the assurance in the doctrine is that no matter what, the reprobate (unsaveable sinner) can only benefit the elect, no matter what he does...for all is to the Glory of God. The Bible uses the term "wicked" because as you are quoting, he does use the wicked to prosper the righteous, even monetarily...a proverb states that the LORD takes from the wicked to benefit the righteous...and the others you quoted already.
All that is being stated by those who teach the doctrine of reprobation, is simply that, there is great assurance to the elect in knowing that none of the enemies weapons can prosper against the elect of God. And again, you are right in thinking that God could use a wicked person to "...work all things to the good...the called according to His Purpose"; and then at a later point in the future, justify that sinner to His glory...as one posted of Saul of Tarsus. He was thourghly lost, and persecuting the Church, yet, God bestowed His Grace on him. " - Duane
Lighthouse Bible Church (Independent Reformed)
Delavan, WI
Election is the Good News (Gospel) - Duane
Lighthouse Bible Church (Independent Reformed)
Delavan, WI
Because he my friend was the only man except Jesus there ever was that had what so many like to think we all have. A free will. God had no desire to create a robot. The bible says that we were made in the image of God. God made man with a free will and man used this free will to become "Like God" in rebellion to God. This act limited the "Free will" of all Adam's decendents. The bible pictures this loss of free will as a spiritual death. That is why we are "Dead in our sins". We have lost in Adam the ability to choose to follow God. That is why Jesus said, "You must be born again" of the spirit. It takes a miracle of God to change our dead heart of stone into a living heart of flesh.
We are all born with this problem and in no way can we change that on our own. If Jesus had been born with this Adamic nature He could never have been the "New Adam" And a representitive of all His people.
That makes sense, Lucknow....i believe the whole arguement on this thread stems from the question: Did God in fact pre-ordain the fall or did He in fact allow it.....in both instances, God knew that the fall would take place...So, would it not be correct to say that if He had known the fall would take place, it was just as certain that the fall would happen as if He had pre-ordained it....from our point of view i see no difference.
Whether he pre-ordained it or foresaw it....the fall was going to happen no matter what.
The thing that always strikes me in this kind of debate is.
1, " God can't be like that, it's not fair." I raised 8 kids and the first thing that they ever said when not getting their way or being punished for something was "It's not fair".
This human idea of fairness is just that, a human idea. God is a God of Justice and Truth. He is true to his word and all will be judged by Him. If in His own soveriegn will He decides to set some apart for his special favour that is His right to do. For those who would complain about that I would say, You can't expect more than Justice. It's like the man on death row, the president gives him a pardon. The president does not have to have any reason for this. It's within his power and perogitive to do it. Now the rest of the cons on death row can cry and moan all they want that it's not fair but what they got already was fair. They got Justice. The one who was set free, what he got was not fair either, he got Grace.
2, Another point that I would like to make is that so many times in this discussion I get the distinct feeling that there are many who believe that in some way God owes Fallen sinful man something. Other than His justice he owes us nothing.
I was thinking about this when I was reading the post about Jacob and Essa. I can remember when I was a child and I really did not understand the story at all. I liked Essa a lot better than I liked Jacob. Jacob was sneaky and underhanded. His very name means ursuper. When I grew up I began to understand the story. God needs no reason to elect anyone to his special favour. It is done out of his sovereign will for His own reasons that we will never know in this world.
Again, another of your posts i see logic and reason in, instead of overspiritualization.....i am proud of you...thank you. And to add to it, sorry, if i may, David was a man after God's own heart, but, we see all the Sins he committed..yet, he was a man after God's own heart....imagine that!, Doesn't sound fair to me when you read God destroying all the others because of their similar Sins.
Calvinists have a few very big problems They really cant be sure if they're saved and therefore cant be sure if God really loves them And if they're not really sure if they're loved & saved how can they offer salvation to anyone else or tell someone else about Gods love & salvation for them ?? It becomes the gospel of MAYBE & BUT MAYBE God chose you before the foundations of the world MAYBE God loves you MAYBE Jesus even died for your sins BUT we cant be sure and we have no way of verifying it One thing is for sure you Calvinists have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell anyone on the face of the earth that God loves them and that Jesus died for an individuals sins because you have no way of verifying this unless He died for everybody.....
And the funny thing is thats what the whole "GOOD NEWS" is based upon. That He died for everyones transgressions and forgiveness is available to everyone both Jew & Gentile...
MAYBE is not "GOOD NEWS" And another thing...If jesus told us to love and pray for our enemies then that really means to love everyone under the harshest of circumstances. He not only tells us to but commands us to... And if He's commanding us to love everybody then that means He loves everybody. NOT some of us.....ALL of us
"While we were yet sinners Christ died for us"
LIMITED ATONEMENT is the devils tool to bring in doubts,maybe's and buts
And since God is Love and the source of all true love... how could He tell us to love and forgive everybody if He hadnt.... That would be impossible...
It is obvious you do not understand Calvinism as you portray....It says in the Bible that all are dead in Sin and that God chooses whom He wishes to choose, His Sovreign Right....That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (not Might Be, but, Will Be)...this is where Faith comes in...either God is stateing the Truth, or He is telling a lie....Salvation comes from Faith and Faith comes from the Grace of God. And God is not just Love, you are forgetting about Hid other many attributes....look them up.
When Jesus preached, read what He preached about....when the Apostles preached, read what they preached about....and who they were preaching to...when they used the "God is Love" mantra.
It is obvious you do not understand Calvinism as you portray....It says in the Bible that all are dead in Sin and that God chooses whom He wishes to choose, His Sovreign Right....That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (not Might Be, but, Will Be)...this is where Faith comes in...either God is stateing the Truth, or He is telling a lie....Salvation comes from Faith and Faith comes from the Grace of God. And God is not just Love, you are forgetting about Hid other many attributes....look them up.
When Jesus preached, read what He preached about....when the Apostles preached, read what they preached about....and who they were preaching to...when they used the "God is Love" mantra.
Where does it say in the scriptures God chooses whom He wishes for Salvation ? .
I will eat my hat if you can find a scripture that clearly states this.
Just about everything you say here about Calvinism is wrong. I don't know if it's out of ignorance of the subject or that the ideas are just offensive to you regardless of the clear teachings of the bible.
Your first point is so far off the mark that it would be laughable if it were not just sad. The 5th point of Calvinism the P is the perserverence of the
saints. Not only does this doctorine assure the believer of salvation in the hear and now it gives him comfort to know with a certainty that ,"He that has begun a good work in us is faithful to bring it to completion." In other words the Believer is "assured of his salvation".
Your statements of "Maybe or But" Are totally off the mark. There is NO maybe about it. God chose me, loves me and Jesus died for me.
Has it never struck you as a strange thing that reformed churched have so many missionaries and outreach programs? That they have always been a major force for evangilizing the world. If what you say had any truth to it at all then that would not be the case.
God chooses and God saves and God loves who he will and it's up to me as a Christian to obey his commands. Preach the gospel to all the world.
Limited atonement is the TRUTH of the gospel. If it offends you that God has choosen a people unto himself to show His special favour too, then why does that offend. Most that find it offensive do so out of human pride. They somehow think that God has to exhibit a character that they can reconcile how they think God should be from their human understanding. IT'S NOT FAIR, they cry that God would not give everyone an equal chance to believe and make their own choice to believe. Do you know how far that is from eveything that is clearly taught in the bible? Do you not know that the unsaved are DEAD in their sin and do not have any ability to regenerate themselves? Do you realize that Christ's sacrifice was a perfect sacrifice and it will save ALL of his people. Christ did not die in vain and if the atonement was for all His death would be in vain in Billions of cases.
Do you believe that the will of fallen sinful man can trump that of all almighty God? If you believe that God loves sinners and Christ died for those who will not believe then the will of those people is more powerful than God's. God wants them to come to saving faith but they won't. What nonsence. This is a picture of a weak ineffectual God that can do nothing without the consent of a man.
"While we were yet sinners Christ died for us". US his people, the ones that God has given him. His adopted people. Do adopted people get chosen or do they chose.
Check out Chose and chosen in your concordance also elected and election. Read the entire book of Ephesians and pray for some understanding and then maybe you will have a little better understanding of the "Doctorines of Grace".
Man, Lucknow, won't you ever stop???? How can you say such things?
But, i must say, that Christ's Sacrifice was for Salvation of the whole world, but, it was only temporal....because God's righteousness demands judgement and justice He would have destroyed the whole world again, like the flood, if it hadn't been for Christ's Sacrifice, so, in a way Christ temporally saved the reprobate from judgement by staying God's hand of execution....But, His Sacrifice for the Lost was Eternal.....just as there is a difference between temporal judgement and eternal judgement...We as childeren of God receive temporal punishments for our Sins (as opposed to spiritual punishment) in order to refine us....the reprobate receive eternal punishment for their Sins (in order for Him to show to us what He has done for us)....Look at the example of Ananias and Saphira....there lives where taken because they lied to the Holy Spirit....it does not say they were condemned eternally....just that as punishment for lieing to the Holy Spirit..they forfeited their earthly lives, a temporal, but, not eternal punishment...people have a tendancy to read into the fate of Ananias and Saphira an eternal punishment when it does not say that...it is only assumed.....but with the information given...that is a false assumption...because they are listed as disciples, in other words, saved...
The gospel according to Billy the Goat BUUUUUUT MAYYYYYYYBE Jesus died 4 U... That is if UUUUUUU put on my John Calvin Klein underwear to cover your iniquity God chose meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee & not uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu NOW THATS PRIDE................................
Keep up the act, maybe Christ will mistake you for the Goat you are pretending to be.......why don't you studying Calvinism in depth or better yet the bible and not just the NT but also the OT.....
Paul is not saying God can do what the hell He likes , you just think he is saying that.
Romans 9:
1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Psalm 135:6 (King James Version)
6Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Looks to me like what He pleases, He does....
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