Any Calvinists here? (doctrine, believe, bible, worship)

[legoman]

The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.

This is what Calvinism says:

1. God predestines a man to sin

2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.

And somehow this is justice.

Justice?

Does that make sense to anyone here?

[Smokepoleeric]

Sure, God (YHWH) is in control and mankind is responsible. That is how HE set it up.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Smokepoleeric

Sure, God (YHWH) is in control and mankind is responsible. That is how HE set it up.

I take it you are a Calvinist then?

If so, then I assume you agree with the 2 points in the OP. I don't dispute that God could do that if He wanted.

What I dispute is how that can possibly be seen as "justice".

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by legoman

I take it you are a Calvinist then?

If so, then I assume you agree with the 2 points in the OP. I don't dispute that God could do that if He wanted.

What I dispute is how that can possibly be seen as "justice".

And how a being such as that could POSSIBLY be described as "love"
and how a being such as that could POSSIBLY garner worship.
And how "perfect love casts out all fear" could possibly make one bit of sense.

[daddythreepointoh]

Dude, you got me. I've been argueing this point for years. Don't expect an answer, other than "Because God (or the bible) says so". According to their interpretation.

IMHO, Calvinism is absolutely disgusting. Wow, you WANT to worship a God like THAT?

As my 6 year old would say..."ew".

[Smokepoleeric]

The apostle Paul was faced with your question when it was asked that since God hardened pharoh's heart, how could pharoh be held responsible for his actions? Paul's response was to say- Oh man, who are you to question what God does? He makes some vessles to honor and some to dishonor.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Smokepoleeric

The apostle Paul was faced with your question when it was asked that since God hardened pharoh's heart, how could pharoh be held responsible for his actions? Paul's response was to say- Oh man, who are you to question what God does? He makes some vessles to honor and some to dishonor.

Yes He did harden Pharaoh's heart but there is no statement telling us that as a direct result of Pharaoh's heart being hardened he was destined to an eternity of torment.

[DaniMae1]

Calvanists?! I LOVE Calvin and Hobbes! Best comic ever!

[trettep]

Originally Posted by Smokepoleeric

Sure, God (YHWH) is in control and mankind is responsible. That is how HE set it up.

You do believe that God knows the end from the beginning don't you?

[trettep]

Originally Posted by Smokepoleeric

The apostle Paul was faced with your question when it was asked that since God hardened pharoh's heart, how could pharoh be held responsible for his actions? Paul's response was to say- Oh man, who are you to question what God does? He makes some vessles to honor and some to dishonor.

Let's take a look:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Notice the question is why would God find fault since nobody has resisted His will (since God is the one doing the hardening). Notice the reply is that the answer is that God has the power to make us to anyway He desires.

Now notice the next verse:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Notice this verse doesn't call these vessels those fitted to destroying but to destruction. A finality is going to happen when there is no longer any destroying.