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Old 10-22-2009, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,122,352 times
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[quote=Verna Perry;11305582]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
...this is why in the end God will have mercy on ALL.[/quote]...No, this is your doctrine Christy, false doctrine...not the Word of God. I stand upon the Word of God, the Scriptures...so you and I just have to agree to disagree.
I'm going to respond to this with the response I gave to Fundy earlier about "Truth":

Gods truth is absolute...you are correct. But most of us don't have Gods truth what we do have is our carnal interpretation of Gods truth...do you see what I mean?

I really don't know how to explain this to you...we read Gods words but we are still very carnal in our thinking and so we interpret the scriptures from that mindset...its doesn't make it wrong or invalid it's just not the whole story. There are spiritual layers to the scriptures that can only be revealed by God and until you experience it...it's just a very difficult thing to explain.

Each of us mature at different spiritual levels...some are still on the step of the simple faith, the "milk" of the Gospel, Christ crucified...while others have moved on to the "solid meat" or the higher spiritual truths of the Gospel.

This doesn't mean that your truth isn't valid....it is just valid for you at this time. When God prompts you to look for the deeper spiritual meaning of the scriptures instead of just the literal letter of them...you will then realize what I am speaking of.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:32 PM
 
303 posts, read 486,380 times
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DaniMae1 SAID:This is what I call Christian doublespeak. They try to come up with something to justify the fact that the Bible is confusing. Keep the law, don't keep the law.....who knows! Pick one!

Its fairly simple we were all born seperate from God under the law in Adam because of his trangression.We are all born "crack babies" if you will.
Christ came to take us out from under the punishment of the law which Adam & Eve brought upon us before we were born which was spiritual as well as physical death.
God originally gave the law to Israel with them thinking in pride ( through works ) that they could keep it but He also ultimately gave it so we would know what sin was so we would be without excuse and how far short we all really fall so that "none can boast".
Because as Paul says "where there was no law there was no sin."
Thats also why most Jews hated "sinning" gentiles and thought they could never be saved.They also hated the Samaritans for the same reason.
Really the laws ultimate purpose is to be a mirror to show us how dirty we really are and how in need of a spiritual bath & rebirth we ALL really are.
And when you think about it that adds up to how unloving we really are.........

Another thing to think about....
The OT law said " an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
So if you stay under that law instead of coming to Christ you will recieve judgement according to what you did in the flesh.
As will the believer be delivered from what he did and rewarded for the works done in the spirit of true love toward his neighbor as himself.......

REVELATION 20:
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

LAW & GRACE

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Hebrews 7:18-19
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” He has made the first one obsolete;and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 7:20-22
And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but He became a priest with an oath when God said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: `You are a priest forever.’” Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Hebrews 10:1-4
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin.

1 Timothy 1:8-10
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

The purpose of the law is to show our need for salvation.

Galatians 3:19-24
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

The law cannot make you righteous, justify you, or give you life.

Galatians 2:16 & 21
Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

The law can only bring death.

Romans 7:10
I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

Knowone has ever kept the whole law except Christ, He kept the law perfectly for us

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Hebrews 10:14
Because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Christ fulfilled the law.

The purpose of the law is to stir up sin.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 7:5, 7-8
For when we were controlled by the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Colossians 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Romans 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. ( the law ) They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

The law includes the Ten Commandments.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.


Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 4
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so He condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24-25
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.


Romans 7:1-6
Do you not know, brothers–for I am speaking to men who know the law–that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:14
Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 3:1-3
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Galatians 1:6-8
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for Himself a people that are His very own, eager to do what is good.

Romans 8:14
Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Galatians 2:19
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

Last edited by caucazhin; 10-22-2009 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:39 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,456,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
My suggestion, for whatever it's worth,

Don't get all hung up on the "law". Get hung up on LOVE

I'd suggest spending more time on the beatitudes
Oakback should certainly know by now that his suggestions are worth quite a bit. June suspects that even in her desire to understand, that she wouldn't have too much of a tendency to get hung up on the "law." She's not quite sure she would even know how to get too hung up on the 'law!' --Hence, the OP! Now love, on the other hand, that's not such a bad hang up, in June's opinion.

-The Beatitudes, huh? As in: Surely you aren't suggesting that the little atheist read more of the bible, now are you!? Is June sensing a bacon overdose such that it is causing irrational thought patterns?

-You know June's just kidding with that last 'bacon overdose' comment. When June goes to the Mall this December to once again see Santa, June's making damn sure that she has "To make me as wise and smart as Oakback" on her list. (Along with "Keep 'just June' adorable for another year!")

Take gentle wisdom care.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:41 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,456,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Christy thinks that June the "little heathen" is more spiritually mature and has more spiritual insight than alot of people I've encountered on this forum.
Okay, now you're scaring me!


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Old 10-22-2009, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 9,367,408 times
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Faith is something not seen but hoped for,we put our trust in the Lord,we go by his word that is set down in the writings of the Bible we as Christians put it all in His hands.

When somebody speaks of the commandments,we keep the commandments but it is all about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins,that we don't have to keep beating ourselves over the head about,well did I sin today did I break a law,we lose out on the love for the Lord when we do this,that is what the Pharisees and Saducees were like in Biblical times they were strict with rules and laws and not about love.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:47 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
If people want to believe that faith, belief, and so forth is a cognitively based process, then despite the fact that June doesn't see it that way, June can be accepting of that. -And will continue to hope that others can be accepting of her, as well. June's not so sure about your stating that believing is 'fundamental to who we actually are," though. Her hesitancy is due to the fact that she isn't all that sure that believing is fundamental to her.

Take gentle pre-conscious care.
The things we absolutely have faith in and which undergird our attitudes and behaviors are those that have been "internalized" (a-la-Kelman) . . . they form what can only be called our personal "principles and beliefs" about reality. They tend to be somewhat immune to external reward or punishment . . . or social modeling and emulation. They constitute what we "believe" . . . as opposed to what we can accept cognitively or profess openly.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Florida
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[quote=ChristyGrl;11305667]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post

I'm going to respond to this with the response I gave to Fundy earlier about "Truth":

Gods truth is absolute...you are correct. But most of us don't have Gods truth what we do have is our carnal interpretation of Gods truth...do you see what I mean?

I really don't know how to explain this to you...we read Gods words but we are still very carnal in our thinking and so we interpret the scriptures from that mindset...its doesn't make it wrong or invalid it's just not the whole story. There are spiritual layers to the scriptures that can only be revealed by God and until you experience it...it's just a very difficult thing to explain.

Each of us mature at different spiritual levels...some are still on the step of the simple faith, the "milk" of the Gospel, Christ crucified...while others have moved on to the "solid meat" or the higher spiritual truths of the Gospel.

This doesn't mean that your truth isn't valid....it is just valid for you at this time. When God prompts you to look for the deeper spiritual meaning of the scriptures instead of just the literal letter of them...you will then realize what I am speaking of.
God's Word does not teach us that all will be saved...that is false doctrine, and I will never believe anything except God's Word...I don't choke on solid meat...I feast upon it...and I'm not looking, nor have I ever looked, for "the deeper spiritual meaning" anywhere other than the holy Scriptures. God's Word is sufficient as it is. It lives and breathes His very thoughts.

In Christ,
Verna.
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,122,352 times
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[quote=Verna Perry;11305931]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
God's Word does not teach us that all will be saved...that is false doctrine, and I will never believe anything except God's Word...I don't choke on solid meat...I feast upon it...and I'm not looking, nor have I ever looked, for "the deeper spiritual meaning" anywhere other than the holy Scriptures. God's Word is sufficient as it is. It lives and breathes His very thoughts.

In Christ,
Verna.
Like I said, that is your truth and I will not call your truth false. Your truth is valid for you at this time...your truth, however, is not valid for me....I have moved on from the literal word you read to the deeper spiritual meanings layered in the scriptures. There are deeper spiritual meanings within the layers of scripture Verna...not just the literal word and only God can reveal those things to you it's not something you will find just reading the bible.
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:10 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,456,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The things we absolutely have faith in and which undergird our attitudes and behaviors are those that have been "internalized" (a-la-Kelman) . . . they form what can only be called our personal "principles and beliefs" about reality. They tend to be somewhat immune to external reward or punishment . . . or social modeling and emulation. They constitute what we "believe" . . . as opposed to what we can accept cognitively or profess openly.
June agrees.

P.S. "Kelman" as in Herbert Kelman, at Harvard?
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:14 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June agrees.

P.S. "Kelman" as in Herbert Kelman, at Harvard?
Yes.
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