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Old 01-20-2010, 03:13 PM
 
193 posts, read 264,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy
Where is this recorded?
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother PAUL also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

v16 As also in all his "EPISTLES" (13 in all from ROMANS to PHILEMON...Rev. 13?), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which THEY that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

v17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, BEWARE lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the WICKED, fall from your own stedfastness.

c: Peter did not attack Paul, but warned the readers to be WISE.

The sign of a GODLY MAN, Slow to anger and full of compassion!

Last edited by life23; 01-20-2010 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:49 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by life23 View Post
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother PAUL also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

v16 As also in all his "EPISTLES" (13 in all from ROMANS to PHILEMON...Rev. 13?), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which THEY that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

v17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, BEWARE lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the WICKED, fall from your own stedfastness.

c: Peter did not attack Paul, but warned the readers to be WISE.

The sign of a GODLY MAN, Slow to anger and full of compassion!
I agree. That's the only NT reference by Peter about Paul that I know of, and it was anything but accusatory.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,127,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I agree. That's the only NT reference by Peter about Paul that I know of, and it was anything but accusatory.

You'd best peruse that again.

The books of James, Peter & Jude are all direct refutations of Paul's cheap grace gospel of "faith alone". Jesus NEVER taught this but always taught faith & works salvation....which all of the 12 Apostles also taught....there are only 12 Apostles and Paul is not one of them. Paul is the only one who taught different and he contradicted himself many times...sometimes even in the same epistle.

2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

While Paul does get it right sometimes.....I take his writings with a grain of salt. If what he says lines up with what Jesus says....it can be trusted. But if it doesn't....I disregard it for we only have ONE TEACHER and ONE MASTER and he has told us exactly what we need to know....the slave is not above the Master, therefore he cannot teach that which Jesus never taught.
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:14 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
You'd best peruse that again.
I don't think so. With all due respect, you'd best go back and peruse your bold assertion--and until you back it up, that was all that it was, an assertion. Here it is verbatim:

"Yes...Peter openly opposed Paul and pretty much called him a false apostle."

Note the word "openly." You claimed that Peter opposed Paul and did so openly, which always has the meaning of "in public for all to see." Even using the word "opposed" indicates a conscious action on Peter's part against Paul. So, you made this incredible claim that Peter essentially confronted Paul to his face. I asked you where this was recorded. Please provide the reference. If you cannot do so, then honesty demands that you take back what you said. If you are as zealous about keeping the commandments as you claim, then you will honestly admit that you deliberately made a bold claim that you cannot back up with facts--in essence, that you fabricated the statement.

I don't usually say things like this, as I strive to be charitable, but I feel the need to say it now because this is now the second time you have refused to back up a claim. You have done this before on this board, claiming that Luther made a particular statement. When I asked you to provide a reference, you referred me to a title of one of his works. I then asked you for a specific reference and quotation, but you never responded.

These two occurrences are beginning to demonstrate a pattern to me. It seems to me that you have no compunction about making bold claims that sound forceful without being able to support them with proper documentation. I find that practice to be disingenuous and unbecoming to someone who claims to be a Christian, not to mention that it tends to damage your credibility.

Please, either provide an actual, specific reference and quotation, or take back what you said. Don't say, "Peter's doctrine was contrary to what Paul taught" and try to use that as a defense, because all that would amount to is saying that you interpret Peter to be teaching something opposed to Paul, which is not even close to the claim that you made. All you'd be doing is trying to subtly deflect the question--another act of dishonesty.
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,127,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I don't think so. With all due respect, you'd best go back and peruse your bold assertion--and until you back it up, that was all that it was, an assertion. Here it is verbatim:

"Yes...Peter openly opposed Paul and pretty much called him a false apostle."

Note the word "openly." You claimed that Peter opposed Paul and did so openly, which always has the meaning of "in public for all to see." Even using the word "opposed" indicates a conscious action on Peter's part against Paul. So, you made this incredible claim that Peter essentially confronted Paul to his face. I asked you where this was recorded. Please provide the reference. If you cannot do so, then honesty demands that you take back what you said. If you are as zealous about keeping the commandments as you claim, then you will honestly admit that you deliberately made a bold claim that you cannot back up with facts--in essence, that you fabricated the statement.

I don't usually say things like this, as I strive to be charitable, but I feel the need to say it now because this is now the second time you have refused to back up a claim. You have done this before on this board, claiming that Luther made a particular statement. When I asked you to provide a reference, you referred me to a title of one of his works. I then asked you for a specific reference and quotation, but you never responded.

These two occurrences are beginning to demonstrate a pattern to me. It seems to me that you have no compunction about making bold claims that sound forceful without being able to support them with proper documentation. I find that practice to be disingenuous and unbecoming to someone who claims to be a Christian, not to mention that it tends to damage your credibility.

Please, either provide an actual, specific reference and quotation, or take back what you said. Don't say, "Peter's doctrine was contrary to what Paul taught" and try to use that as a defense, because all that would amount to is saying that you interpret Peter to be teaching something opposed to Paul, which is not even close to the claim that you made. All you'd be doing is trying to subtly deflect the question--another act of dishonesty.
Are you reading the same book I am? Did Paul teach "faith alone"? Yes and No...sometimes he did and other times he contradicts himself by teaching faith & works. Did Peter, James, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jesus, etc....teach "faith alone"? No...they never taught this, they ALWAYS taught faith & works salvation....ALWAYS!!!

Even Augustine admitted the books I listed were refutations to Paul's false doctrine of "faith alone".

Go read the Book of James.....James directly refutes two very specific points that Paul made regarding "faith alone"....which were false.

BTW....I gave you the name of the paper Luther wrote....you just don't want to bother to do the work by looking it up. And it will be the same here....go study the books. If one finds the information and sees it for themselves it is better understood by them.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,909,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckydad95 View Post
I have issues with several denom's, but was wondering if I really have to attend a church?
Define Church.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:35 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Are you reading the same book I am? Did Paul teach "faith alone"? Yes and No...sometimes he did and other times he contradicts himself by teaching faith & works. Did Peter, James, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jesus, etc....teach "faith alone"? No...they never taught this, they ALWAYS taught faith & works salvation....ALWAYS!!!
Just as I anticipated, you answer a question that was not asked. You provide your own personal interpretation of other NT authors as some kind of source material to back up your claim that Peter "openly" opposed Paul. So, obviously you are evading the question, and when people evade questions it is usually because they are trying to hide something. You don't provide a specific reference to back up your claim simply because you do not have one. You fabricated it.

Quote:
BTW....I gave you the name of the paper Luther wrote....you just don't want to bother to do the work by looking it up.
Not at all. What I wanted was for you to demonstrate your integrity by showing that you actually derived the alleged statement of Luther from an actual source. That is what all honest people do when they quote someone else, either directly or indirectly: provide not only the source but also the exact quote and its location within the source, or at least readily do so when it is requested of them. You have done neither. I can see no other reason for your stubborn refusal to do so other than the fact that you simply make things up.

Since you have clearly demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in honest discussion, I see no reason to continue any further dialogue with you until you repent of your disingenuousness. Discussion is futile with someone who fabricates claims.

Last edited by Jremy; 01-21-2010 at 10:53 AM..
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:00 AM
 
20,332 posts, read 15,709,470 times
Reputation: 7472
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
You'd best peruse that again.

The books of James, Peter & Jude are all direct refutations of Paul's cheap grace gospel of "faith alone". Jesus NEVER taught this but always taught faith & works salvation....which all of the 12 Apostles also taught....there are only 12 Apostles and Paul is not one of them. Paul is the only one who taught different and he contradicted himself many times...sometimes even in the same epistle.

2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

While Paul does get it right sometimes.....I take his writings with a grain of salt. If what he says lines up with what Jesus says....it can be trusted. But if it doesn't....I disregard it for we only have ONE TEACHER and ONE MASTER and he has told us exactly what we need to know....the slave is not above the Master, therefore he cannot teach that which Jesus never taught.
What an attack on the word of God. Paul was God's choice to replace Judas as an apostle. It was the resurrected Jesus Christ who appeared to Paul on the Damacus road. Acts 25:14-18. Paul was appointed by God as Apostle.

Acts 25:14 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'' 15) And I said, ''Who art Thou, Lord?'' And the Lord said, ''I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16) But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things in which I will appear to you; 17) delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18) to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those
who have been sanctified by faith in Me.


And from the resurrected Jesus Himself, a direct statement (which I have bolded in blue) that salvation is through faith in Him. Not by works.

God revealed to Paul more church-age doctrine than was revealed to any of the other Apostles. And most of the New Testament's Epistles were written by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And you have the temerity to say that ''Paul gets it right sometimes.' Paul never contradicted himself. You do not understand what he is saying.

You acknowledge that Paul taught that salvation is by faith alone, but you reject and pervert the grace of God by calling it 'cheap grace.' Grace is all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. There is nothing cheap about it. The cost was the spiritual death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The cost was Jesus Christ bearing every single sin in the history of the human race, past, present and future. And because Christ paid the price, salvation is FREE for us. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.' And that's it. That is the only requirement for eternal salvation.

Do you seriously think that God made a mistake in appointing Paul as an Apostle? Do you seriously think that God would have allowed into the Bible teachings that Paul claimed to be true but were in fact false doctrines?

In 2 Peter 3:14-16 Peter honors Paul with these words. 'Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15) and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand (Advanced doctrines of the word of God which pertain to the church-age), which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

That last phrase is speaking to those who deny and reject what Paul wrote, and it applies to all who deny that Jesus Christ is God.

Through Paul, God revealed the Church-age doctrines that God expects believers to learn. But of course you have to be a believer in Christ first. And there are many who claim, who profess to believe in Christ and they don't know Him at all. And neither does He know them.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-21-2010 at 11:37 AM..
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
34,826 posts, read 42,971,317 times
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Although raised in the church, we've never been joiners and so have never joined a church here. We plan to move to a different state and will not know many people, so I imagine we will probably look for a church that feels comfortable-mostly for the social aspect and for volunteer opportunities that will help us mesh in the community. At a certain point, too, I wonder where we could have a nice funeral once one of us kicks the bucket.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:19 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,344 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What an attack on the word of God. Paul was God's choice to replace Judas as an apostle. It was the resurrected Jesus Christ who appeared to Paul on the Damacus road. Acts 25:14-18. Paul was appointed by God as Apostle.
Don't bother. You can't convince someone whose mind is made up and who is intent on fabricating claims. By responding, all you're doing is giving her (or him?) another reason to post more of the same.
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