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Old 10-23-2009, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,120,866 times
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I would like the "literalists" to respond to these questions that I posted in another forum but were never answered:

I'm am just really and seriously curious about something...why is it that "literalists" take a book of symbols (Revelation), read it "literally" and espouse that those "literal" things are going to happen?

But when Jesus said:

Mt 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come.

Mt 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things;
12 but I say to you that Elijah already came (John the Baptist), and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Mk 9:11 They asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He will suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13 "But I say to you that Elijah has indeed come (John the Baptist), and they did to him whatever they wished, just as it is written of him."

Lk 1:17 "It is he (John the Baptist) who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

The above are all a fulfillment of this prophecy:
Mal 4:5 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.


Mt 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Mt 24:32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;

33 so, you too (the Apostles), when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Mk 13:28 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.

29 "Even so, you too (the Apostles), when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Lk 11:49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute,

50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

Lk 21:29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;

30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see (the Apostles) these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

These clear and precise words of Jesus are either ignored, twisted or given some false meaning.

When I read these things...it clearly says that Jesus would return before the people He was speaking to, those in the generation He was speaking to, would die.

I really am curious how "literalists" justify taking a book of symbols and give it "literal" meaning by a "literal" read and then ignore other "literal" clear and precise statments that Jesus expressly made giving the time of His return?

I can't wait for the answers!
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:16 PM
 
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what is the question again?

i cant find the part where you want to ask something...
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:23 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,351 times
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as for the "Elijah" stuff...

Elijah was taken and did not die if I remember correctly.
The bible talks about Elijah returning just before the Lord comes.

John the baptist is said to be Elijah
On the Mt of Transfiguration we see the real Elijah.
and there is some suggestion that one of the two witnesses in the book of Revelation is also Elijah.

I think it is to be understood like this...

we have to keep in mind that the Bible talks about the comming of jesus 2 times...

The first time as a savior, the 2nd time as a king/judge
It may be true that Elijah has to come before jesus both times to fulfill the text about him.

This means that the first time Jesus came to the world we have John being the fulfillment of the Elijah prediction.

This also means that at the 2nd commong we also will see Elijah return just before the Lord arrives.
This would fit if it is true that one of the 2 witnesses in Revelation is the real Elijah that was taken in the Old test.

In both cases, when Elijah returns that generation will not pass away berfore the Lord arrives...
after the birth of John, we see Jesus born a few months later.

My guess is that after the return of Elijah in the book of Revelation the return of Jesus will, be also just a few months later.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:08 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,456,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I would like the "literalists" to respond to these questions that I posted in another forum but were never answered:

I'm am just really and seriously curious about something...why is it that "literalists" take a book of symbols (Revelation), read it "literally" and espouse that those "literal" things are going to happen?

But when Jesus said:

Mt 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come.
I am on my way home but I will tackle the first two. I don't like to say the bible has symbols but illustrations. In Revelations we hear a beast rising out of the sea, obviously this is an illustration or "symbol" as you like to call it but with a literal meaning behind it, the ten horns represent 10 nations.

(Matthew 11:14) And if you are willing to accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come.
This is what we call systematic theology taking the whole council of God into the interpretation of this verse and not the verse itself.

This verse does not suggest that John was Elijah returned because John in (John 1:21) was asked, was he Elijah and John said, NO. John had come into the spirit and power of Elijah and if they had believed John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophesies but they didn't believe but rejected not only John but Jesus as well so there will be another who will come in the spirit and power of Elijah before the second coming of Christ.

OT Prophesy was fulfilled that the Messiah's forerunner would die. The fate intended for Elijah had befallen John the Baptist.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,120,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am on my way home but I will tackle the first two. I don't like to say the bible has symbols but illustrations. In Revelations we hear a beast rising out of the sea, obviously this is an illustration or "symbol" as you like to call it but with a literal meaning behind it, the ten horns represent 10 nations.

(Matthew 11:14) And if you are willing to accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come.
This is what we call systematic theology taking the whole council of God into the interpretation of this verse and not the verse itself.

This verse does not suggest that John was Elijah returned because John in (John 1:21) was asked, was he Elijah and John said, NO. John had come into the spirit and power of Elijah and if they had believed John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophesies but they didn't believe but rejected not only John but Jesus as well so there will be another who will come in the spirit and power of Elijah before the second coming of Christ.

OT Prophesy was fulfilled that the Messiah's forerunner would die. The fate intended for Elijah had befallen John the Baptist.
That is not plausible given what Jesus clearly said about him....just because John didn't recognize that he was the fulfillment of the prophecy doesn't mean he wasn't.

See, this is just the kind of thing I was referring to. Literalists take the things spoken of in Rev as literal events that will happen...the sun being darkened, the stars falling, etc...but when it comes to the words Jesus actually said about events that were to happen in the lifetime of the Apostles...it's get fluffed off into a different meaning than what it says.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
That is not plausible given what Jesus clearly said about him....just because John didn't recognize that he was the fulfillment of the prophecy doesn't mean he wasn't.

See, this is just the kind of thing I was referring to. Literalists take the things spoken of in Rev as literal events that will happen...the sun being darkened, the stars falling, etc...but when it comes to the words Jesus actually said about events that were to happen in the lifetime of the Apostles...it's get fluffed off into a different meaning than what it says.
That's because John the writer of Revelation was a literalist and Jesus was not
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:37 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am on my way home but I will tackle the first two. I don't like to say the bible has symbols but illustrations. In Revelations we hear a beast rising out of the sea, obviously this is an illustration or "symbol" as you like to call it but with a literal meaning behind it, the ten horns represent 10 nations.

(Matthew 11:14) And if you are willing to accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come.
This is what we call systematic theology taking the whole council of God into the interpretation of this verse and not the verse itself.

This verse does not suggest that John was Elijah returned because John in (John 1:21) was asked, was he Elijah and John said, NO. John had come into the spirit and power of Elijah and if they had believed John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophesies but they didn't believe but rejected not only John but Jesus as well so there will be another who will come in the spirit and power of Elijah before the second coming of Christ.

OT Prophesy was fulfilled that the Messiah's forerunner would die. The fate intended for Elijah had befallen John the Baptist.

Good answer Fundy!
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,120,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Good answer Fundy!
No...it wasn't a good answer...just more blather.
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:02 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
No...it wasn't a good answer...just more blather.
more with the "blather" word?

it's going to be harder to find people to post on your topics at this rate,,,
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 505,354 times
Reputation: 41
The Myth of "Consistent Literalism"

The Myth of Consistent Literalism
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