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Old 10-30-2009, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
I don't have to rebut it because you didn't provide me with what I asked. You say that Jesus is not God, then show me scripture that says that Jesus is not God.
Again you don't feel you must refute what I believe which proves that you cannot.. but what you ask I do refute and again I will try again to help you to understand.

Jesus is a man, right? Agree?

God is not a man. God is not born as a baby... God as a baby? Funny but goes to show that you have no concept of the vastness of God.

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn incense before Him?

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God really dwell on earth with men? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

Jeremiah 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Jesus is not God. A human body cannot contain God.

Which is why God is not a man:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

God has no human traits.. he is God. Flesh and Blood cannot house God, the heavens and earth cannot contain God.

Jesus is not God.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:13 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,350,084 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again you don't feel you must refute what I believe which proves that you cannot.. but what you ask I do refute and again I will try again to help you to understand.

Jesus is a man, right? Agree?

God is not a man. God is not born as a baby... God as a baby? Funny but goes to show that you have no concept of the vastness of God.

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn incense before Him?

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God really dwell on earth with men? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

Jeremiah 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Jesus is not God. A human body cannot contain God.

Which is why God is not a man:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

God has no human traits.. he is God. Flesh and Blood cannot house God, the heavens and earth cannot contain God.

Jesus is not God.
LOL, these scriptures say nothing. You are speaking about God not being a man as God says, because He didn't yet come and walk on earth. LOL, if you don't know that you are deeply confused.

I ask you once again you say that Jesus is not God, show me scripture that says that Jesus is God? Show me scripture that says that a human body can't contain God.

The scripture says that the heavens and earth, show me scripture that says that human flesh, can't.

Quote:
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
This scripture says that God is not a man that He should like, nor a son of man, that he should change His mind.

This does not say that God was never a man. If that is the case, you even said that Jesus was the son of man, but in this verse says nor son of man, but it is not saying that He is not son of man, but son of man, that he should change His mind.

You miss the simple things.

Quote:
1 Kings 8:27 "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

This scripture is not saying that God wouldn't dwell on earth, He was asking will God. This scripture says that the heavens can't contain, and how much less the temple, says nothing about God dwelling in flesh.

Quote:
1 Samuel 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
Once again this verse is saying that God is not a man that should change His mind, not that He was never a man.

Geeeeze, you can't read scripture.

Quote:
Jesus is not God.
Well provide the scripture

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-30-2009 at 02:27 AM..
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:16 AM
 
79 posts, read 72,171 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Like I said.. I believe simply that God is one. The ONLY one.. you include others in that one... Who is following scripture?

My position:
  1. Jesus is not all-knowing: Mark 24: 32-36
  2. Jesus never said "I am God." God says he is God quite plainly, so why would Jesus be so secretive about it? Should I take your word for it?
  3. Jesus says he is the son of man, we are told not to trust the son of man (Psalms 146:3) which is why Jesus says that God is his witness and he speaks God's words. When Jesus says you see me you see God it is because God is the only one we should trust.
  4. Jesus was GIVEN power and authority FROM GOD. This affirms that he has no God power on his own. (John 13:3; John 17:6-8; John 7:16; John 12:4; John 8:26; John 14:24)
  5. Jesus doesn't even say in secret to the disciples that he is God.. Why? Because they wouldn't have followed him. They never expected God to come in flesh as the prophet Messiah. Why doesn't he say "you are killing God" on the cross? Because no one would believe GOD was hanging on the cross, but we see that even the guards saw him die and believe he is the SON OF GOD. (Mark 15:39)
  6. Judaism teaches from the beginning that the Messiah was a man, a great prophet. Dying on the cross would negate that he was the Messiah which Jesus knew, he said specifically that they were blind to his purpose... He is Christ! He claimed to be Christ and affirms it. (John 20:31 after Thomas exclaims "My Lord, My God.")
  7. Jesus does not say to worship him, he says to worship who he worships.. the one true God. (Matt. 4:10) If he was God what is the problem with worshiping him? Trinitarians worship Jesus yet Jesus expressly states the opposite.
I will stop there and let you rebut it.

John 17:5 Jesus makes it clear here that before the world existed He shared the glory of God with the Father.

Philippians 2:6 Jesus being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

Colossians 1:15-20 Jesus is the image of the invisible God and He [Jesus] created ALL things.Jesus is before ALL things and He is the head of the church

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was God

Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is both the son of God and the son of David.[man]
King David called Jesus Lord approx 1000 years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. [Psalm 110:1 and Mark 12:35-37]

Until one can accurately answer the question that Jesus asked in Mark 12:35-37 one does not understand who Jesus Is.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:26 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,350,084 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
John 17:5 Jesus makes it clear here that before the world existed He shared the glory of God with the Father.

Philippians 2:6 Jesus being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

Colossians 1:15-20 Jesus is the image of the invisible God and He [Jesus] created ALL things.Jesus is before ALL things and He is the head of the church

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was God

Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is both the son of God and the son of David.[man]
King David called Jesus Lord approx 1000 years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. [Psalm 110:1 and Mark 12:35-37]

Until one can accurately answer the question that Jesus asked in Mark 12:35-37 one does not understand who Jesus Is.
By me reading scripture by what you have posted, Jesus is the Son of God, The Son of Man, and God, Equal with God. I just read what you posted.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
LOL, these scriptures say nothing. You are speaking about God not being a man as God says, because He didn't yet come and walk on earth. LOL, if you don't know that you are deeply confused.

I ask you once again you say that Jesus is not God, show me scripture that says that Jesus is God? Show me scripture that says that a human body can't contain God.

The scripture says that the heavens and earth, show me scripture that says that human flesh, can't.
You are kidding, right? If the heavens and earth cannot contain God how is it you say that a human body can contain him?
This scripture I posted says that it is impossible for an earthly temple, the heavens, the earth to contain God. God is not a man.

You choose to ignore the scriptures and I feel for you because what you do by venerating Jesus as God is called idolatry. Not to mention that you misrepresent God by giving his attributes to another.

I feel sorry for you because in not understanding God you can't understand Jesus. I made the point that Jesus is not God. That a human body cannot be 100% God if the heavens and earth cannot contain him.

Yet you have brought nothing that says Jesus is God.

Simply answer this then. If you believe what you say. Using Jesus' words, show me where Jesus says he is God.

You continue to evade proving your belief that Jesus is God.

You assert Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies with you.

If you can't prove that Jesus claimed to be God then you have no leg to stand on and must admit that not only am I right but that you are an idolater.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:31 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,350,084 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You are kidding, right? If the heavens and earth cannot contain God how is it you say that a human body can contain him?
This scripture I posted says that it is impossible for an earthly temple, the heavens, the earth to contain God. God is not a man.

You choose to ignore the scriptures and I feel for you because what you do by venerating Jesus as God is called idolatry. Not to mention that you misrepresent God by giving his attributes to another.

I feel sorry for you because in not understanding God you can't understand Jesus. I made the point that Jesus is not God. That a human body cannot be 100% God if the heavens and earth cannot contain him.

Yet you have brought nothing that says Jesus is God.

Simply answer this then. If you believe what you say. Using Jesus' words, show me where Jesus says he is God.

You continue to evade proving your belief that Jesus is God.

You assert Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies with you.

If you can't prove that Jesus claimed to be God then you have no leg to stand on and must admit that not only am I right but that you are an idolater.
LOL, you are trying to squirm your way out of providing scripture and asking to see Scripture that you only want to see that Jesus is saying that He is God.

You know that scripture points to Jesus being God, yet you fight with it. LOL.

I will leave you with this, Kat, you refuse to see scripture, or you just don't want to admit that you are wrong.

Jesus used the very words that He used in the OT, His name, I am. Only God used this name. This is the same name that God used in Hebrew as He used again in Greek.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

The same Greek word is used in both occurrences of the word God in John 1:1. This same word is used in many contexts, whether it refers to the Only True God or whether it is referring to a false god - such as a man-made god or Satan as the god of this age. The apparent differences in spelling between the word God in the phrase and the Word was God (theos) and in other places, even in the previous phrase, and the Word was with God (theon) is due to inflection in the Greek language.

Each Greek noun normally has 8 or 9 forms cases & number in which it can appear. In the first instance in John 1:1 it is the object of preposition and thus is in the accusative case. In the phrase in question, it is in the nominative case, indicating the subject or predicate nominative - equal to the subject.

But it is the same word for God, and in both phrases here indicates the One and Only True God. So the apparent difference is spelling is not because theos is a different word than theon, but is a different form of the identical word.

In John 1:1 there is no definite article in front of the word God in the phrase, and the Word was God. However, in this instance, it cannot just be assumed that the word God is meant to be indefinite, and therefore an indefinite article used in the English translation.

Because the first use of the word God in John 1:1 the Word was with God clearly refers to the Only True God, the Eternal Pre-existent Creator, more than likely John would have used a different Greek construction than he did if he had meant for this next phrase and the Word was God to refer to a lesser god, and did not want us to confuse this with the True God he had just mentioned.

If John meant to avoid confusion, when making such a definitive statement, he could have done so by using this indefinite pronoun tis as an adjective. This would have made it clear that the Word was a certain god, but not the one he was just referring to.

There are several verses, I will just use Luke 18:27, where the same word is being used.

1 John 5:20, Jesus is called the true God, the true theos.

So, it seems that by the Greek grammatical structure in this statement, John is indicating that the Word (Jesus Christ - John 1:14) is the same essence and nature as God the Father.

It is also necessary to see this statement in context of the rest of John’s writings. When comparing this with other statements about who the person and nature of Jesus Christ really is, it adds to what is already made clear by the Greek grammar.

See for instance: John 8:56-59, with comparing to this verse- Exo. 3:13-14).

Philippian 2:7
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Christ made Himself in the form of man, but as you see before He has the form of God. He is God.

These verses also indicate that, in John’s understanding and thus the Bible’s clear statements, Jesus Christ is the same essence and nature as God the Father, but distinct in their person-hood. All the verses except philippian, so you don't ge confused even more.

The same greek word that is used for Jesus is the same word used when talking about God. UMMM, looks like you are the one who need to do your research. Scriptures never lie.

It was nice with this little chat, but I have other things to do and work. Keep up what ever you are doing and you will continue going down the wrong road. I have other things to do.

You feel sorry for me, not as much as I feel sorry for you. I must say that this chat was not one that was really worth it or much of a challenge, but I must say, you give me much laughter. Only a fool would deny Jesus to be God.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-30-2009 at 02:46 AM..
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:44 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
John 17:5 Jesus makes it clear here that before the world existed He shared the glory of God with the Father.

Philippians 2:6 Jesus being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

Colossians 1:15-20 Jesus is the image of the invisible God and He [Jesus] created ALL things.Jesus is before ALL things and He is the head of the church

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was God

Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is both the son of God and the son of David.[man]
King David called Jesus Lord approx 1000 years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. [Psalm 110:1 and Mark 12:35-37]

Until one can accurately answer the question that Jesus asked in Mark 12:35-37 one does not understand who Jesus Is.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21)

“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” (John 5:37)

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)

“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.” (John 8:50)

“Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me” (John 7:16)

“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me” (John 14:24)

For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)

“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work” (John 4:34)

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 6:38)

“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)

I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30)

“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)

“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me” (John 8:42)

“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23)

“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me” (John 7:16)

Jesus had nothing. God is the one with the power and he gave the power to Jesus UNTIL -

1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
LOL, you are trying to squirm your way out of providing scripture and asking to see Scripture that you only want to see that Jesus is saying that He is God.

You know that scripture points to Jesus being God, yet you fight with it. LOL.

I will leave you with this, Kat, you refuse to see scripture, or you just don't want to admit that you are wrong.

Jesus used the very words that He used in the OT, His name, I am. Only God used this name. This is the same name that God used in Hebrew as He used again in Greek.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

The same Greek word is used in both occurrences of the word God in John 1:1. This same word is used in many contexts, whether it refers to the Only True God or whether it is referring to a false god - such as a man-made god or Satan as the god of this age. The apparent differences in spelling between the word God in the phrase and the Word was God (theos) and in other places, even in the previous phrase, and the Word was with God (theon) is due to inflection in the Greek language.

Each Greek noun normally has 8 or 9 forms cases & number in which it can appear. In the first instance in John 1:1 it is the object of preposition and thus is in the accusative case. In the phrase in question, it is in the nominative case, indicating the subject or predicate nominative - equal to the subject.

But it is the same word for God, and in both phrases here indicates the One and Only True God. So the apparent difference is spelling is not because theos is a different word than theon, but is a different form of the identical word.

In John 1:1 there is no definite article in front of the word God in the phrase, and the Word was God. However, in this instance, it cannot just be assumed that the word God is meant to be indefinite, and therefore an indefinite article used in the English translation.

Because the first use of the word God in John 1:1 the Word was with God clearly refers to the Only True God, the Eternal Pre-existent Creator, more than likely John would have used a different Greek construction than he did if he had meant for this next phrase and the Word was God to refer to a lesser god, and did not want us to confuse this with the True God he had just mentioned.

If John meant to avoid confusion, when making such a definitive statement, he could have done so by using this indefinite pronoun tis as an adjective. This would have made it clear that the Word was a certain god, but not the one he was just referring to.

There are several verses, I will just use Luke 18:27, where the same word is being used.

1 John 5:20, Jesus is called the true God, the true theos.

So, it seems that by the Greek grammatical structure in this statement, John is indicating that the Word (Jesus Christ - John 1:14) is the same essence and nature as God the Father.

It is also necessary to see this statement in context of the rest of John’s writings. When comparing this with other statements about who the person and nature of Jesus Christ really is, it adds to what is already made clear by the Greek grammar.

See for instance: John 8:56-59, with comparing to this verse- Exo. 3:13-14).

Philippian 2:7
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Christ made Himself in the form of man, but as you see before He has the form of God. He is God.

These verses also indicate that, in John’s understanding and thus the Bible’s clear statements, Jesus Christ is the same essence and nature as God the Father, but distinct in their person-hood. All the verses except philippian, so you don't ge confused even more.

The same greek word that is used for Jesus is the same word used when talking about God. UMMM, looks like you are the one who need to do your research. Scriptures never lie.

It was nice with this little chat, but I have other things to do and work. Keep up what ever you are doing and you will continue going down the wrong road. I have other things to do.

You feel sorry for me, not as much as I feel sorry for you. I must say that this chat was not one that was really worth it or much of a challenge, but I must say, you give me much laughter. Only a fool would deny Jesus to be God.
FINALLY something substantial! I will answer tomorrow as I am exhausted.. well actually later today as it is tomorrow already. Just wanted you to know that I will answer each point you make, even though you address nothing I say and have been and probably will continue to disparage me personally.

Have a good night.
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Old 10-30-2009, 03:02 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,350,084 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
FINALLY something substantial! I will answer tomorrow as I am exhausted.. well actually later today as it is tomorrow already. Just wanted you to know that I will answer each point you make, even though you address nothing I say and have been and probably will continue to disparage me personally.

Have a good night.
I did address, you just refuse to see. Anyway, I will be away, I have to much work to do.
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:49 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,453,770 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus is in hypostatic union for all eternity from the point of His first incarnation. You read the passages but you lack comprehension. Go to my thread that I posted last night concerning the indwelling of all three members of the Trinity in the body of the church-age believer. As God, Jesus Christ indwells the body of the church age believer.
Usually when theologians cannot back prove something from Scriptures they have to invent smoke screens such as "hypostatic union" in order to hoodwink their audience.

Since "hypostatic" is not in the Scriptures it should not be any part of a revelation about God or Christ.

While Christ was the Son of man and Son of God, He was not the disciple's God. After Christ ascended into heaven He continued not being the disciples God (see Revelation 3:2,12 . . . )

Rev 3:12 '"The one who is conquering, him will I be making a pillar in the temple of My God, and he may be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

Rev 3:2 Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God."
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