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Old 11-01-2009, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As long as you maintain this carnal concept of personhood and refuse to consider the deeper meaning embedded in the very concept of Word . . . the debates and confusion will continue. The meaning in John 1:1, has far more significance than the carnal understanding of the Word of God,

. . . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God; and the Word was God.


There is no deeper meaning than that God's word is the essence of all existence.. not just Jesus' existence but all existence...It's not only applicable to Jesus but to all mankind. You say carnal concept of personhood but then you don't realize that it is the carnal mind that refuses to think of God as ONE yet able to make all things new through the ministry of the word. The word of God is so powerful that it cannot be contained in human flesh. The Word of God is the spirit of God not Jesus.

Jesus was the vessel as we are vessels.. Jesus held the word, carried the word, spoke the word but was NOT THE WORD.

Quote:
A word is an abstract phenomenon of consciousness and exists only where consciousness exists. A word is a series of symbols grouped together, which when taken as a whole, creates in a being with consciousness an abstract realization or "knowingness" that we recognize as the condition of having meaning. THAT identifies the Word (with a capital w) as God AND as consciousness. That is why John 1:14 is so profound
The word is still a spoken manifestation of thought.. no more no less. The word is what God spoke and is God.. that does not make Jesus the word. Jesus spoke the word. When they saw Jesus they saw the Father. When they heard Jesus it was not Jesus' words it was God's words.
Quote:
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The consciousness of God was placed in a human body and brain (different place and form . . . SAME consciousness). When Jesus died His consciousness left His body and was reborn as Spirit (as we are destined to be) and is now the Holy Spirit ( a different place and form . . . SAME consciousness). We are ALL defined by our consciousness . . . not the vessel or form we inhabit. ALL three forms have different attributes and capabilities . . . but are the SAME consciousness and are therefore the SAME person. There is nothing mysterious about it at all.
Yet Jesus was a person with a favorite color, song, food.. he was not God he was human with human traits. God is God. He is huge. He cannot fit into a human body. The most that will fit into humans is the Word or spirit of God.. not God himself. You seem to think that God can be contained when the bible teaches that the earth cannot contain God.. he is so vast that the earth and heavens are encompassed by him. There is no way that Jesus could house God no matter what you seem to think about their consciousness.

Quote:
The implications of this are profound. Each human consciousness is a "cellular" component of the total human consciousness in existence. But, most importantly . . . Jesus's human consciousness is now part of it since His rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit. That makes the collective human consciousness now connected through Jesus with God's consciousness. The part that makes me uneasy is contemplating what occurs during this intervening time while Jesus's Holy Spirit is part of human consciousness . . . because not all human consciousness that has been produced or is being produced today is compatible. While we are in human form . . . we can alter our consciousness under the guidance of the Holy Spirit within. Each one of us has the ability to attune our consciousness in "love of God and each other" sufficiently to be acceptable to Jesus . . . and therefore to God. But what is happening to those already dead? How are they becoming attuned to Jesus and God? What if anything is the process? But that is probably fodder for another topic.
I don't agree. The thought that not all human consciousness is compatible with God is only evident if Jesus is God. If Jesus is Human only then we as humans can also have what Jesus had. We can be as Jesus is/was.. there is no limit if we trust God as he did. But if you make Jesus God then we cannot trust God or be "one" with God because we are not God...

See what you are saying is that Jesus was not just showing us God's true nature but that he is God's true nature. That is a fallacy. Jesus tells us that God is loving, longsuffering, patient, and just. Yet the Jews believed that God was vengeful, spiteful, angry, and jealous.. this was why they did not recognize God's word coming from Jesus' mouth... The message is not that Jesus is God.. the message is that Jesus is the exact representation of God.. not divine. just that he was obedient to God in all things. He trusted that God would do what was right. Jesus did nothing on his own. he only did what God wanted.

I hope I addressed everything you say as consciousness is a term that I am not familiar with but I tried. .. and if I messed up it is because it is late and I am tired. Hopefully when I read it in the morning it will still make sense..
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:09 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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YouTube - Walter Martin- Jesus:God, Man, or Myth? *Short Clip*
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:27 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
"the Word Was WITH God,
The Word WAS God...

So it seems that the Word was both with God almighty, and was God Almighty....
In what sense was the word, God?

Alan, Greek has two words to represent our idea of "with" and neither of those two words are used here. Instead, the word "pros" is used and should be translated "toward." The word was toward God." In other words, the word pointed us to God.

It is impossible for us to comprehend that "the word was toward God" and at the same time "the word was God." "Was" and "is" are usually omitted in Greek unless the Greek is trying to show a figure of speech such as "this IS My body." The bread was not literally Christ's body. Just as the bread represented in some way Christ's body, thus the word in some way represented God.

Eusebius
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:28 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
In what sense was the word, God?
Whatever "God" is.....so is the Word
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:30 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
In what sense was the word, God?
"God" has nothing that the "Word" lacks...

All that "God" is, so to is the Word

The "Word" and the "God" are equal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK2Mr...om=PL&index=33

or perhaps you want more proof?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzAXZ...eature=related

Last edited by alanMolstad; 11-01-2009 at 06:44 AM..
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:40 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Alan, why do you listen to a deceiver like Walter Martin?

Martin believed and taught there was a being named Lucifer. There was never any such being. The word where "Lucifer" is used in Isaiah 14:12 is rendered "howl" everywhere else in the O.T.

Isaiah 14:6 says he was a man. Satan is a spirit, not a man.
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,117,441 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
Christy, don't want to be repetitive . . but do you believe Jesus existence began on earth . . or do you believe that He is the Word and the Word was with God . . . Or Let Us make Man in Our Image . . Or before Abraham I Am . . . Kat . . Eusebius .. . just curious . . . if this was addressed before, well, sorry . . it's been a long night . . .
No I believe Jesus spirit/soul was with God before he came to earth...the same way I believe our spirits/souls were with God before we were born. Being with God beforehand...does not make us God. No...I do not believe The Word is Jesus. The Word is God.....The Word/God was in Jesus when he came to earth to share Gods message of love and mercy with us. Jesus came to show us The Way to God....we are now to follow in his footsteps so we can also be ONE with God as he was.
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:42 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Whatever "God" is.....so is the Word
You don't get it, Alan, to the degree that the bread IS Christ's body is to the same degree that the word is God.

Do you really believe that the bread they ate had a pumping heart, kidneys, liver, fecal excrement etc.?
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:50 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Alan, why do you listen to a deceiver like Walter Martin?

.
Thats right, always try to blame the messenger for the bad news....

I have written on another topic running here why I love the way WM teaches and why when I got introduced to him I was able to use his book "The Kingdom Of The Cults to help a friend out of the JWs

so personal attacks against him will not get you much mileage with me, friend...
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:58 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Thats right, always try to blame the messenger for the bad news....

I have written on another topic running here why I love the way WM teaches and why when I got introduced to him I was able to use his book "The Kingdom Of The Cults to help a friend out of the JWs

so personal attacks against him will not get you much mileage with me, friend...
If a Mormon gets someone to leave Jehovah's Witnesses does that make them right?
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