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Old 11-02-2009, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
The point I make here is that many times the people that have fallen into "The Cult of One, will bark and bark at the traditional church.
The will point out that a real Christian church would not be split up into so many different denominations.

They will denounce the way each church has split off from the others.

and then in the next breath...

You will find that no matter how many places of agreement you might have with them on other issues, that they hold so tightly to some things that are so off the beaten path that they have no knowledge of anyone being even close to full agreement with them in their life.

They could never set up a church and get it going because their teachings are not held close enough by anyone that they would allow to lead their church.

99.99% agreement is not close enough.
that little point of disagreement is enough to cause them to walk away and declare you "Lost"

They turn out to be the ultimate "split off"
They complain of the denominations, and yet turn out to be a denomination of "one person"
Your speech is cool and all... but you have no reason to say that of the two of us you were talking to on this thread. you disagree with fundamentalists on some things, JWs on some things, etc.. So all you are saying is that each person's relationship with God is different...

Not sure what point the "cult of one" rant is supposed to prove..
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,116,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus is not God....he said himself, he was a prophet. He is the son of God, our brother and our friend....the same way we are the sons and daughters of God.

Deut 18:15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'
17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.
18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Mt 13:57 And they took offense at Him But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."

Lk 13:33 Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.

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Old 11-04-2009, 11:11 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Jesus is not God....he said himself, he was a prophet. He is the son of God, our brother and our friend....the same way we are the sons and daughters of God.

Deut 18:15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'
17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.
18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Mt 13:57 And they took offense at Him But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."

Lk 13:33 Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.
Jesus referred to John the Baptist as "more than a prophet":

Mat 11:9 `But what went ye out to see? --a prophet? yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet,

John speaking says Jesus is "mightier than I":

Mat 3:11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

From this we know that Jesus is more than a prophet.

Jesus asked the scribes of his day, why David referred to the Messiah (Christ) as his "Lord":

Mar 12:35 And Jesus answering said, teaching in the temple, `How say the scribes that the Christ is son of David?
Mar 12:36 for David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said to my lord, Sit thou on My right hand, till I place thine enemies--thy footstool;
Mar 12:37 therefore David himself saith of him Lord, and whence is he his son?' And the great multitude were hearing him gladly,

Jesus question is taken from Psalms 110:1:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

To understand this questions significance, there are three different Hebrew words used in our English translations for "Lord", "LORD" and "JEHOVAH":

1. 'âdôn (Strong's word reference 113) usually translated Lord
2. 'ădônây (Strong's word reference 137) usually translated Lord
3. yehôvâh (Strong's word reference 3068) usually translated LORD or JEHOVAH.

In Psalm 110:1, the Hebrew term 'âdôn is used with reference to David's Lord, as shown here with Strong's word reference numbers.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm4210 of David.1732 The LORD3068 said5002 unto my Lord,113 Sit3427 thou at my right hand,3225 until5704 I make7896 thine enemies341 thy footstool.1916, 7272

If you search the Psalms for who Davids "Lord" is, we find the following:

David, in the Spirit, says that his Lord (Strong's word reference 113) is Jehovah our Lord:

Psa 8:1 To the chief Musician5329 upon5921 Gittith,1665 A Psalm4210 of David.1732 O LORD3068 our Lord,113 how4100 excellent117 is thy name8034 in all3605 the earth!776 who834 hast set5414 thy glory1935 above5921 the heavens.8064

Psa 8:9 O LORD3068 our Lord,113 how4100 excellent117 is thy name8034 in all3605 the earth!776

In Psalms 114:7 the Lord (Strongs word reference 113) is referred to as the God of Jacob:

Psa 114:7 Tremble,2342 thou earth,776 at the presence4480, 6440 of the Lord,113 at the presence4480, 6440 of the God433 of Jacob;3290

The Jews understood this and whom Jesus claimed to be:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

Do you now understand why the scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy?

The scriptures clearly testify that Jesus is Jehovah God of Israel. Believe it.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Jesus referred to John the Baptist as "more than a prophet":

Mat 11:9 `But what went ye out to see? --a prophet? yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet,

John speaking says Jesus is "mightier than I":

Mat 3:11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

From this we know that Jesus is more than a prophet.

Jesus asked the scribes of his day, why David referred to the Messiah (Christ) as his "Lord":

Mar 12:35 And Jesus answering said, teaching in the temple, `How say the scribes that the Christ is son of David?
Mar 12:36 for David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said to my lord, Sit thou on My right hand, till I place thine enemies--thy footstool;
Mar 12:37 therefore David himself saith of him Lord, and whence is he his son?' And the great multitude were hearing him gladly,

Jesus question is taken from Psalms 110:1:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

To understand this questions significance, there are three different Hebrew words used in our English translations for "Lord", "LORD" and "JEHOVAH":

1. 'âdôn (Strong's word reference 113) usually translated Lord
2. 'ădônây (Strong's word reference 137) usually translated Lord
3. yehôvâh (Strong's word reference 3068) usually translated LORD or JEHOVAH.

In Psalm 110:1, the Hebrew term 'âdôn is used with reference to David's Lord, as shown here with Strong's word reference numbers.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm4210 of David.1732 The LORD3068 said5002 unto my Lord,113 Sit3427 thou at my right hand,3225 until5704 I make7896 thine enemies341 thy footstool.1916, 7272

If you search the Psalms for who Davids "Lord" is, we find the following:

David, in the Spirit, says that his Lord (Strong's word reference 113) is Jehovah our Lord:

Psa 8:1 To the chief Musician5329 upon5921 Gittith,1665 A Psalm4210 of David.1732 O LORD3068 our Lord,113 how4100 excellent117 is thy name8034 in all3605 the earth!776 who834 hast set5414 thy glory1935 above5921 the heavens.8064

Psa 8:9 O LORD3068 our Lord,113 how4100 excellent117 is thy name8034 in all3605 the earth!776

In Psalms 114:7 the Lord (Strongs word reference 113) is referred to as the God of Jacob:

Psa 114:7 Tremble,2342 thou earth,776 at the presence4480, 6440 of the Lord,113 at the presence4480, 6440 of the God433 of Jacob;3290

The Jews understood this and whom Jesus claimed to be:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

Do you now understand why the scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy?

The scriptures clearly testify that Jesus is Jehovah God of Israel. Believe it.
I think I've covered most of this in another thread... your logic trickles down your post and look good.. but if what you say is true then what was Jesus Crucified for? Why didn't they just stone him for Blasphemy as that would have been normally the case?
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,285,528 times
Reputation: 420
(Revelation 17:14)
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 2:8 These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again

Isa 48:12 Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last

In Revelation 1:7-8, the Lord God (Jehovah) states He is the Alpha and Omega. Yet in that same verse the speaker, God (Jehovah), says He was pierced. Who was it that was actually pierced? Jesus. In Revelation 22:12-20 it is Jesus who claims He is the Alpha and Omega. In Isaiah 48:12 and 44:6 God, Jehovah says He is the first and the last. Yet again in Revelation 2:8, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Finally, Both God, Jehovah, and Jesus are described as "coming soon".

1 Cor 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jude 1:5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Zech 11:12-13 I told them, "if you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter" - the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

Matt 26:14 Then one of the Twelve - the one called Judas Iscariot - went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus did not rebuke him.

Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
(Revelation 17:14)
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 2:8 These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again

Isa 48:12 Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last

In Revelation 1:7-8, the Lord God (Jehovah) states He is the Alpha and Omega. Yet in that same verse the speaker, God (Jehovah), says He was pierced. Who was it that was actually pierced? Jesus. In Revelation 22:12-20 it is Jesus who claims He is the Alpha and Omega. In Isaiah 48:12 and 44:6 God, Jehovah says He is the first and the last. Yet again in Revelation 2:8, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Finally, Both God, Jehovah, and Jesus are described as "coming soon".

1 Cor 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jude 1:5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Zech 11:12-13 I told them, "if you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter" - the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

Matt 26:14 Then one of the Twelve - the one called Judas Iscariot - went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus did not rebuke him.

Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together
Well hello! Missed ya.. I will respond to this at length in a bit but just wanted to say HI. So "HI"
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
(Revelation 17:14)
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings - and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 2:8 These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again

Isa 48:12 Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last

In Revelation 1:7-8, the Lord God (Jehovah) states He is the Alpha and Omega. Yet in that same verse the speaker, God (Jehovah), says He was pierced. Who was it that was actually pierced? Jesus. In Revelation 22:12-20 it is Jesus who claims He is the Alpha and Omega. In Isaiah 48:12 and 44:6 God, Jehovah says He is the first and the last. Yet again in Revelation 2:8, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Finally, Both God, Jehovah, and Jesus are described as "coming soon".
Why use apocalyptic writings to says something literal when they are symbolic already?
Quote:
1 Cor 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jude 1:5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Zech 11:12-13 I told them, "if you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter" - the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

Matt 26:14 Then one of the Twelve - the one called Judas Iscariot - went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
1 Cor. 4-6 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Quote:
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus did not rebuke him.
But if he even thought that Thomas was referring to him as God why then in verse 31:
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

Why not just say that Jesus is God.... why the Christ or the Son of God? You seem to imply that the disciples or at the very least, Thomas thought Jesus was God.. why then do they never say Jesus is God? Wouldn't verse 31 be the perfect opportunity to say that given what you think the meaning of Thomas' words are?

Quote:
Col 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5)


1 Cor. 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"


1 Corinthians 3:23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

A god cannot have a god but as we see in Psalms.. a king can have a lord... you quote Lord of Lords, King of Kings... where is God of gods?
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:50 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I think I've covered most of this in another thread... your logic trickles down your post and look good.. but if what you say is true then what was Jesus Crucified for? Why didn't they just stone him for Blasphemy as that would have been normally the case?
Jesus was crucified at the request of the Jews, by the Roman Governor Pontius Pilot, for blasphemy (making Himself the Son of God):

Joh 19:7 the Jews answered him, `We have a law, and according to our law he ought to die, for he made himself Son of God.'

Crucifixion was the Roman method for execution.

The Jews did try numerous times to kill Jesus by stoning:

Joh 10:31 Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'

Joh 5:18 because of this, then, were the Jews seeking the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

The reason the Jews did not succeed in stoning is found in Acts. God had other plans:

Act 4:26 the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ;
Act 4:27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel did determine before to come to pass.

The scriptures had prophesied that Christ should die on a tree (cross or stake), not by stoning:

Gal 3:13 Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'

For this reason, Christ was crucified on a tree (cross) for the sinner, as recorded in Acts:

Act 5:30 and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;
Act 5:31 this one God, a Prince and a Saviour, hath exalted with His right hand, to give reformation to Israel, and forgiveness of sins;

You mentioned another thread regarding my previous post, please provide a link if you would .
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Old 11-05-2009, 04:20 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Why didn't they just stone him for Blasphemy as that would have been normally the case?
They tried ....but it was not his time...
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Jesus was crucified at the request of the Jews, by the Roman Governor Pontius Pilot, for blasphemy (making Himself the Son of God):

Joh 19:7 the Jews answered him, `We have a law, and according to our law he ought to die, for he made himself Son of God.'

Crucifixion was the Roman method for execution.

The Jews did try numerous times to kill Jesus by stoning:

Joh 10:31 Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'

Joh 5:18 because of this, then, were the Jews seeking the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

The reason the Jews did not succeed in stoning is found in Acts. God had other plans:

Act 4:26 the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ;
Act 4:27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel did determine before to come to pass.

The scriptures had prophesied that Christ should die on a tree (cross or stake), not by stoning:

Gal 3:13 Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'

For this reason, Christ was crucified on a tree (cross) for the sinner, as recorded in Acts:

Act 5:30 and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;
Act 5:31 this one God, a Prince and a Saviour, hath exalted with His right hand, to give reformation to Israel, and forgiveness of sins;

You mentioned another thread regarding my previous post, please provide a link if you would .
I read my post over and I am sorry for the confusion.. I meant prior posts in this thread.. my bad

Pilate says to the Council that he has broken no law of the Romans... that is when the council says that Jesus proclaims to be King of the Jews. The reason they could not stone him is that in Jewish law one cannot be a witness against one's self. You must have two or more.. They simply did not have two or more witnesses.

The charge against him for which he hanged was sedition.. blasphemy is not a crime to the Romans.

Are you saying that the Jews wanted to make sure prophecy was fulfilled by having him crucified rather than stoned? Doesn't seem in their best interest given their position against Christ.

He never claimed to be God.. He claimed to be a Son of God. In Jewish law one could be stoned for false prophecy too.. Blasphemy is not simply claiming to be God.. that would be laughed at as there is only one God who the Jews believed could never fit into a human body.. he is too vast..

Blasphemy is attributing to God what is not God. Jesus (in the eyes of the Jews) claimed to be the Messiah on God's mission but they did not believe him so he blasphemed the mission of God and thus God.. there was not anytime where Christ claimed to be God.
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