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Old 11-05-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Katonjj, you are incorrect..you have again used two scripture completely out of context with each other. I hope you see the error in doing so. I am sorry for your loss in seeing it as it is...but I can further be of no help...it is up to the Holy Spirit now.....
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj, you are incorrect..you have again used two scripture completely out of context with each other. I hope you see the error in doing so. I am sorry for your loss in seeing it as it is...but I can further be of no help...it is up to the Holy Spirit now.....
Well hey you tried..

And in my defense those scriptures were not connected.. but one person is called savior and another is called savior.. but they are not the same.. It proved that your logic in Revelation is not necessarily truth but a conjecture as sure as mine was.

In closing..

I will give you the reason why I deny that Christ is God.

See.. God cannot die..Therefore if Christ was God then God didn't die so there was no sacrifice. Even if the human body of Christ died.. God didn't change at all. This kinda nullifies the whole purpose of the cross. IMO.

Likewise.. if Jesus was God then he was nothing like me.. Even God in human form is nothing like me. Therefore the sacrifice of himself to himself.. makes no sense as far as payment for sins..

Heb. 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.

Now does that sound like God? Can God truly sympathize with our weaknesses having none of his own? Now of course he is God and made those weaknesses.. but God cannot be tempted let alone in everyway as we are.. so Jesus cannot be God..

But anyway.. thanks for the great conversation. I appreciate your candor and insights.
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:03 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Psalm 8:1 For the director of music. According to gittith. A psalm of David. O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens.

The first LORD is Jehovah the name of the lord. The second is a title.. lord or master. It's like saying King David, our king.. David is the name of the king and he is king.. It really should read O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is your name... as in O Jehovah how majestic is your name .. our Lord describes Jehovah... Jehovah is also translated as God.. It is, however, the proper name of God and really shouldn't be translated at all.
This Psalm states that David's lord (master), as well as Israel's, is in fact Jehovah. Actually, David, being king over Israel, had no earthy master or lord. The only conclusion that we can draw from this is that David's lord is also Jehovah. So far so good

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Strongs states the first Lord is: From hayah; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God -- Jehovah, the Lord.
the second Lord is : adon or lord, master, owner

Psalm 8:9 is just a repeat of 8:1 as is done is prose
Sounds good, agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

The first LORD is Jehovah and the second is the title master.. David sees that God's promised Messiah will be greater than him.. bringing forth salvation. So Jesus cannot be both Jehovah and master but God is both Jehovah and master.
Jesus can and does take both titles Messiah and lord (Jehovah's title here). This is clearly demonstrated when both Psalms are viewed together as a whole. This is the point Jesus was making and also why the Jews were so displeased when the children sang Hosanna to Jesus:

Psa 8:2 From the mouths of infants and sucklings Thou hast founded strength, Because of Thine adversaries, To still an enemy and a self-avenger.

Mat 21:15 and the chief priests and the scribes having seen the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, `Hosanna to the Son of David,' were much displeased;
Mat 21:16 and they said to him, `Hearest thou what these say?' And Jesus saith to them, `Yes, did ye never read, that, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings Thou didst prepare praise?'

The fascinating thing about this is that Christ takes the titles that had been previously applied to Jehovah in the Psalms, and He owns them without reservation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Colossians 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

David was seeking the things above. In Psalm 110:2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies.
We see that the LORD (Jehovah) sends or extends his rule through another.. the master or messiah.

David also sat on the throne of God as ruler and master... but Jesus was a more complete master and ruler in that he was completely obedient to God in all things, thus he is also Davids master and ruler as well.

David and Abraham both saw the coming of salvation through a messiah.. Jesus was the messiah.. not God himself. God saves through Jesus .. Jesus does nothing on his own.
Jesus fulfilling His role and title as Messiah and Lord does not diminish, or make less, His relationship to His Father as Son. Likewise, the Father when working through the Son does not diminish the Father's glory or capacity in so doing. They work as Father and Son, together as One.

The next verse I would like you to consider is Psalms 45:6, and it's relationship to Christ in Hebrews 1:8, if your time permits.

Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts with me!
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:32 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
This Psalm states that David's lord (master), as well as Israel's, is in fact Jehovah. Actually, David, being king over Israel, had no earthy master or lord. The only conclusion that we can draw from this is that David's lord is also Jehovah. So far so good

Jesus can and does take both titles Messiah and lord (Jehovah's title here). This is clearly demonstrated when both Psalms are viewed together as a whole. This is the point Jesus was making and also why the Jews were so displeased when the children sang Hosanna to Jesus:

Psa 8:2 From the mouths of infants and sucklings Thou hast founded strength, Because of Thine adversaries, To still an enemy and a self-avenger.

Mat 21:15 and the chief priests and the scribes having seen the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, `Hosanna to the Son of David,' were much displeased;
Mat 21:16 and they said to him, `Hearest thou what these say?' And Jesus saith to them, `Yes, did ye never read, that, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings Thou didst prepare praise?'

The fascinating thing about this is that Christ takes the titles that had been previously applied to Jehovah in the Psalms, and He owns them without reservation.
I agree.. it is plain in the bible that Jesus is given all the authority of God on earth.. A human with authority.. sorta like in Bruce Almighty where God is still God but a human has his authority. This authority is temporary though as we see in 1 Cor. 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Quote:
Jesus fulfilling His role and title as Messiah and Lord does not diminish, or make less, His relationship to His Father as Son. Likewise, the Father when working through the Son does not diminish the Father's glory or capacity in so doing. They work as Father and Son, together as One.
Yes.. but more like the relationship between a servant and master in presenting the gospel but as Father and Son in affection/closeness and inheritance.

Quote:
The next verse I would like you to consider is Psalms 45:6, and it's relationship to Christ in Hebrews 1:8, if your time permits.

Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts with me!
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Notice verse 2... You are the most excellent of menand your lips have been anointed with grace,
since God has blessed you forever.



So God blessed this king and it is his throne on which the king sits...



Verse 3 ...Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.



So O mighty one and God are two different people. God blessed the mighty one and provided a throne.



Verse 7...

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.



So the anointed one, the mighty one has the same God as the author of this Psalm.. right? And God (his God) sets him above his companions.



Now looking at Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."


This is a word for word quote of scripture... Thus not only is the context of the original (Psalm 45:6 as discussed above) important but we also must take into consideration that it is the throne and righteousness that lasts forever and is applicable to Jesus, the son. The "O God" is the same O God in Psalm.. God Almighty.... the God of the anointed one, the mighty one, Jesus...


If God is the KING of Kings.. Jesus is his heir, his son, and inherits the throne. Not because Jesus is God but because Jesus is the only begotten son and God gives him the throne. God also takes it back so God is all in all..


However.. the book of hebrews seems to emphasize that Jesus is higher than the angels.. now if the 1st century Christian believed that Jesus was God why try to convince them Jesus was higher than angels.. that would have been useless, right?



Young's Concise Bible Commentary: "[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered 'God is thy throne ...' in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only."



The throne is divine not Jesus.
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So Jesus cannot be both Jehovah and master but God is both Jehovah and master.
Quick follow-up to my previous post: Unless Jesus is both Jehovah and master, than David had two masters, concurrently.

Psalm 8:1 says: Jehovah, "our" Lord. Here, the applicability of Jehovah's title is over David.

Psalm 110:1 Here, David uses the word "my" when referring to the subjects title.

I don't see how we can escape the conclusion that David's Lord, the subject's title in Psalm 110:1, is none other than Jehovah in name, using the title Lord, in Psalm 8:1.

Why do you feel that Jehovah can not be both Messiah and Lord in title?

The scriptures do speak of Jehovah being in partnership:

Gen 19:24 and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;

Often, the Angel of Jehovah is identified as being Jehovah:

Gen 22:15 And the Angel of Jehovah called to Abraham out of the heavens a second time.
Gen 22:16 And He said, I have sworn by Myself, declares Jehovah, that on account of this thing you have done, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 that blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the shore of the sea. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies.

Notice that the Angel of Jehovah says: "I have sworn by Myself", as opposed to representing or speaking for Jehovah.

Another example: the Angel of God is identified as the God of Bethel:

Gen 31:11 And the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, Jacob! And I said, Behold me.
Gen 31:12 And He said, Lift up your eyes and see all the rams leaping on the flock; they are striped, speckled and spotted. For I have seen all that Laban is doing to you.
Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, there where you anointed the pillar, where you vowed a vow to Me. Now rise up; go out of this land and go back to the land of your kindred.

Why do you feel it is not possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself, while working within the context of His titles, without violating "The Lord our God is One Lord"?
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Christ said HE is the Aplha and Omega.....
Beginning & Ending....Genesis & Revelation....The Tree of Life in both....I am The Way, The Truth and The Life.

What was in the beginning....Let us make man in "our" image....The Tree of Life in the garden.....The Tree of Life in the New Jerusalem.

When you ask God to show you the "spiritual" implications of all Jesus said and did, instead of just reading the "literal" words, you might understand God and Jesus a little better.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:28 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj, you are incorrect..you have again used two scripture completely out of context with each other. I hope you see the error in doing so. I am sorry for your loss in seeing it as it is...but I can further be of no help...it is up to the Holy Spirit now.....
Yep, all the time. You know when people don't understand scripture or interpret the wrong way ( the way they see it, or misunderstand it) they will often quote things out of context.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Quick follow-up to my previous post: Unless Jesus is both Jehovah and master, than David had two masters, concurrently.

Psalm 8:1 says: Jehovah, "our" Lord. Here, the applicability of Jehovah's title is over David.

Psalm 110:1 Here, David uses the word "my" when referring to the subjects title.

I don't see how we can escape the conclusion that David's Lord, the subject's title in Psalm 110:1, is none other than Jehovah in name, using the title Lord, in Psalm 8:1.

Why do you feel that Jehovah can not be both Messiah and Lord in title?
Ok look at what you say above in the last line... I have made it bold...
Now look at the statement I made to which you refer:
"So Jesus cannot be both Jehovah and master but God is both Jehovah and master."

I didn't say anything about Jehovah not being both lord and messiah.
However, Messiah and Christ both refer to Anointed One..
Strong's defines christos as the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ

Can God/Jehovah be anointed? or is he the anoint-er?

So if you are asking me why I don't think Jehovah is also the anointed one.. well who would anoint him? He anoints others.

Quote:
The scriptures do speak of Jehovah being in partnership:

Gen 19:24 and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;

Often, the Angel of Jehovah is identified as being Jehovah:

Gen 22:15 And the Angel of Jehovah called to Abraham out of the heavens a second time.
Gen 22:16 And He said, I have sworn by Myself, declares Jehovah, that on account of this thing you have done, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 that blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the shore of the sea. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies.

Notice that the Angel of Jehovah says: "I have sworn by Myself", as opposed to representing or speaking for Jehovah.
If you are leaving the proper name of God intact then why take the translation of Angel rather than the word it really means? Messenger.
The messenger of Jehovah speaks for Jehovah.. Christ was a messenger of Jehovah.. the anointed messenger of Jehovah..
The voice of Jehovah.. or the spirit of Jehovah could also be a messenger of Jehovah.

Are you saying Jesus is an angel?

Quote:
Another example: the Angel of God is identified as the God of Bethel:

Gen 31:11 And the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, Jacob! And I said, Behold me.
Gen 31:12 And He said, Lift up your eyes and see all the rams leaping on the flock; they are striped, speckled and spotted. For I have seen all that Laban is doing to you.
Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, there where you anointed the pillar, where you vowed a vow to Me. Now rise up; go out of this land and go back to the land of your kindred.

Why do you feel it is not possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself, while working within the context of His titles, without violating "The Lord our God is One Lord"?
Now that is a good question.. notice that the messenger or angel speaks in dreams, visions... but not in a human body called God. God speaks and delivers a message..

Jesus is the human "image" of God's purpose. He fulfills that which God wills and is given all things by God to complete this purpose. That doesn't make him God but a servant of God just as David was a servant to his God.

Why is it that you think God can be contained in a human body?

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn incense before Him?

Jeremiah 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Psalm 115:16 The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Luke 3:6 And all mankind will see God's salvation.

Psalm 62:7 My salvation and my honor depend on God; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

Isa. 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."

God is salvation and sends salvation through Jesus, a man...

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Gal. 3: 19-20 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one [party].

So Jesus mediates but God is only speaking for himself. The man, Jesus, is the mediator.. God gives the mediator the authority to speak for him to the other party.. Men... and Jesus speaks for Men because he is a man.

So God is too big to fit on the earth or to be housed in a created structure. God created the human body and therefore God is too big to fit in it as well.. God is the savior who gives salvation as a message to others using prophets who are mere men. Jesus was the ultimate prophet and mediator.

Hebrews 8:6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I agree.. it is plain in the bible that Jesus is given all the authority of God on earth.. A human with authority.. sorta like in Bruce Almighty where God is still God but a human has his authority. This authority is temporary though as we see in 1 Cor. 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
The reason Jesus humbled Himself, or stepped down as it were, to that of Messiah (a servant), is found here:

Php 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
Php 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
Php 2:8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross,
Php 2:9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow--of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth--
Php 2:11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So far, I think we've been discussing Jesus' position (or office title) of Messiahship.

The issue of importance IMO has to do with Jesus' nature, within the context of His relationship to His Father. Is Jesus eternally co-equal, and does He possess all of the divine attributes of His Father? This, in my mind, is the real issue. We haven't really touched on this, as yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes.. but more like the relationship between a servant and master in presenting the gospel but as Father and Son in affection/closeness and inheritance.
But why limit the relationship between Son and Father to emotions and to the servant roles performed by Jesus? The scriptures do not, Jesus did not, why then should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Notice verse 2... You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace,
since God has blessed you forever.

So God blessed this king and it is his throne on which the king sits...

Verse 3 ...Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.

So O mighty one and God are two different people. God blessed the mighty one and provided a throne.

Verse 7...

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

So the anointed one, the mighty one has the same God as the author of this Psalm.. right? And God (his God) sets him above his companions.

Now looking at Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

This is a word for word quote of scripture... Thus not only is the context of the original (Psalm 45:6 as discussed above) important but we also must take into consideration that it is the throne and righteousness that lasts forever and is applicable to Jesus, the son. The "O God" is the same O God in Psalm.. God Almighty.... the God of the anointed one, the mighty one, Jesus...

If God is the KING of Kings.. Jesus is his heir, his son, and inherits the throne. Not because Jesus is God but because Jesus is the only begotten son and God gives him the throne. God also takes it back so God is all in all..

However.. the book of hebrews seems to emphasize that Jesus is higher than the angels.. now if the 1st century Christian believed that Jesus was God why try to convince them Jesus was higher than angels.. that would have been useless, right?

Young's Concise Bible Commentary: "[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered 'God is thy throne ...' in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only."

The throne is divine not Jesus.
With all due respect, I think your missing the point of the being and nature of the person who holds the title Messiah. Clearly, the Psalmist saw that persons nature (not title) as God himself, and so stated it in Psalm 45:6. The apostle Paul (if we can assign Hebrews to him), gives testimony to this, in Hebrews 1:8 and 10. But Paul, under inspiration, attributes it to Jesus, within the context of His titles as Son and Lord.

In similar fashion, Isaiah, under divine inspiration, records his vision of Jehovah:

Isa 6:1 In the year of the death of king Uzziah--I see the Lord, sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and His train is filling the temple.
Isa 6:5 And I say, `Woe to me, for I have been silent, For a man--unclean of lips am I, And in midst of a people unclean of lips I am dwelling, Because the King, Jehovah of Hosts, have my eyes seen.'

However, John in His gospel, and also under divine inspiration, tells us it was the Messiah's glory that Isaiah saw:

Joh 12:41 these things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

I'm seeing all this very clearly, are you really not with me on this? Anyway, this is making for very interesting discussion.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ok look at what you say above in the last line... I have made it bold...
Now look at the statement I made to which you refer:
"So Jesus cannot be both Jehovah and master but God is both Jehovah and master."

I didn't say anything about Jehovah not being both lord and messiah.
However, Messiah and Christ both refer to Anointed One..
Strong's defines christos as the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ

Can God/Jehovah be anointed? or is he the anoint-er?

So if you are asking me why I don't think Jehovah is also the anointed one.. well who would anoint him? He anoints others.
The Father anoints the Son. But this does not diminish the Son's nature, as being Jehovah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If you are leaving the proper name of God intact then why take the translation of Angel rather than the word it really means? Messenger.
The messenger of Jehovah speaks for Jehovah.. Christ was a messenger of Jehovah.. the anointed messenger of Jehovah..
The voice of Jehovah.. or the spirit of Jehovah could also be a messenger of Jehovah.

Are you saying Jesus is an angel?
Not an angel, but The Angel of Jehovah. This Angel clearly speaks for Himself, as being Jehovah. I could have used Young's literal translation with messenger, but I felt the LITV gave the easiest read. But this shouldn't detract from my premise that both Father and Son share the same nature, regardless if the Son speaks for the Father.

I think the gap between us lies in the fact that I see the nature of Jehovah within the context of Father and Son, and you do not. But I'm not sure why you do not. We may not be able to get past this issue if we are to have a meeting of the minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Now that is a good question.. notice that the messenger or angel speaks in dreams, visions... but not in a human body called God. God speaks and delivers a message..

Jesus is the human "image" of God's purpose. He fulfills that which God wills and is given all things by God to complete this purpose. That doesn't make him God but a servant of God just as David was a servant to his God.

Why is it that you think God can be contained in a human body?

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn incense before Him?

Jeremiah 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Psalm 115:16 The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Luke 3:6 And all mankind will see God's salvation.

Psalm 62:7 My salvation and my honor depend on God; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

Isa. 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."

God is salvation and sends salvation through Jesus, a man...

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Gal. 3: 19-20 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one [party].

So Jesus mediates but God is only speaking for himself. The man, Jesus, is the mediator.. God gives the mediator the authority to speak for him to the other party.. Men... and Jesus speaks for Men because he is a man.

So God is too big to fit on the earth or to be housed in a created structure. God created the human body and therefore God is too big to fit in it as well.. God is the savior who gives salvation as a message to others using prophets who are mere men. Jesus was the ultimate prophet and mediator.

Hebrews 8:6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
I understand why you see Jehovah as separate from Jesus within the context of the roles and titles Jesus holds. But this should not detract you from his nature. Even while holding a subservient roll on earth, Jesus affirms that He is still One with His Father.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'

This is a claim you can not ignore. Especially when Jesus Himself said:

Mar 12:29 and Jesus answered him--`The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;

There is one very important scripture that makes this claim all the more important. I'll post it using two translations:

(LITV) Joh 8:24 Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

(YLT) Joh 8:24 I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.' (note that the term "he" is italicized and is supplied by the translator).

I would encourage everyone that reads Jesus' statement to give it careful consideration

Sorry for the time lapse between my posts, and if they are out of sync. It's a busy day! LOL
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