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Old 11-06-2009, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwoodpoint View Post
Boy this wears me out just reading some of these posts.
I AM...I just love that simplistic statement. God just IS. The beginning and the end. He just is...it is just more than we can comprehend. I don't claim to understand it all, nor really can anyone. We are just the clay and he is the potter. I just trust and believe...

You are absolutley right. The same goes for Greek when Jesus was referring to the exact phrasing used in the LXX in Exodus when God spoke to Moses, as He used with the Pharisees...proclaiming his deity, thus the elders sought to execute Him for doing so.

From the Septuagint for Exodus 3:14...I have the phrase bolded that is that same used in John 8:58

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

You see folks, there are plenty of places in scripture where Christ explicitly tells His audience who He really is, and although it is confusing to me that some have misinterpreted the scripture based on the the sole understanding of the flesh, it is just not rightly divided as it should have been, thus leading to an erred interpretation. Christ is God manifested in the flesh, and the scripture has made it available to all us to see it.


John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are absolutley right. The same goes for Greek when Jesus was referring to the exact phrasing used in the LXX in Exodus when God spoke to Moses, as He used with the Pharisees...proclaiming his deity, thus the elders sought to execute Him for doing so.

From the Septuagint for Exodus 3:14...I have the phrase bolded that is that same used in John 8:58

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

You see folks, there are plenty of places in scripture where Christ explicitly tells His audience who He really is, and although it is confusing to me that some have misinterpreted the scripture based on the the sole understanding of the flesh, it is just not rightly divided as it should have been, thus leading to an erred interpretation. Christ is God manifested in the flesh, and the scripture has made it available to all us to see it.


John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.
Didn't you just complain that I took two verses out of context (in proving that we can use any verse to show that someone is savior yet not God) yet here you take the words of Jesus.. and compare them to words of God.. Totally out of context. Jesus says "I am" several times but you seem to think that means he is saying the same thing God did?

How do you justify using these and yet condemn me for doing the same thing?
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Didn't you just complain that I took two verses out of context (in proving that we can use any verse to show that someone is savior yet not God) yet here you take the words of Jesus.. and compare them to words of God.. Totally out of context. Jesus says "I am" several times but you seem to think that means he is saying the same thing God did?

How do you justify using these and yet condemn me for doing the same thing?
Because I didn't take anything out of context.


We aren't analysing context here, but grammar, and just to enlighten you all, these both are consistent in context because they are speaking of the same issue. God is I am...and Jesus is claiming His existence before Abraham..by using the very same verbage as what was penned in the LXX concerning the proclamation of both pre and post Abraham existence....this isn't about His soul or anything like some claim.....this claim is but a feeble insertion of an idea into the text...You must compare scripture with scripture, not ideas and ideals with scripture.

The denial of several points made here in this thread is beyond me, but it seems it is a satisfaction of the flesh, and the desire to limit God in what He can do. Several times in the scripture, we see Christ claim deity with His use of apocalyptic and parabled language, and God claiming in prophecy the events stricken upon Christ when referring to Himself. As far as I am concerned, the message by those that proclaim Christ's deity in this thread stand firm, and the house that is contrary in both their eisegesis and lack of proper understanding of the Greek and Hebrew text, as well as the inability to adhere to proper hermeneutical standards, all result in the failure to see what is plain to see.

Christ is Deity and part of the Godhead

Read:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.


The creeds may have not spent much time with eschatology, and that is where they failed, but they did spend large amounts of time on this very subject, and the work is out there to read, and I suggest those that believe Christ is not deity should pay more attention to the decades of work the early fathers spent on this subject, instead of placing their faith in the fallacy of the this illogical doctrine. Their hermeneutics are outstanding, and nothing I have said so far, has not been hashed out already over a thousand years ago.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
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Katonjj,

Let's use what I earlier said in regards to you using scripture out of context to prove your point.

Quote:
There is no reason to think that Christ declares HE is Alpha and Omega.. he simply represents and speaks with authority of the one who has no beginning.

Somewhat like the lawyer of a company represents the company and speaks for the company they are not the company. They have a title which denotes that they are speaking for the company but the lawyer is not the company itself.

Using your logic:
Isa. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Judges 3:15 Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin. (Ehud was the son of Gera.) The people sent him with their tax payment to King Eglon of Moab.

We see that Ehud is God? right? Because the same title is used for both..
The above are two verses regarding a "savior"...in the context of the verses, the first is God being the savior for all mankind and the second is Ehud being a savior for the people in regards to the tax.
The grammar is straightforward, and the same, but the context of both verses are entirely different. You have indeed proved the point that the words are definitely the same, but the context of each area of scripture is entirely different....hence hermeneutics 101

Quote:
That is what you are trying to do with Jesus..
In regards to Alpha and Omega, Christ claims the title that only God holds..not a representative title, the THE TITLE of God...before and after. The same goes for John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14..the context is that God is I AM THAT I AM...a phrase that denoted not only His omnipresence, but also in relation for Aaron, the people of Egypt, in order for them to recognize that Moses was indeed sent by God.

The same manner is when Jesus is referring to Himself, as being in existence before Abraham, not in spirit or some incorruptible soul that first, if we are to follow proper Preterist exegesis which is what you represent as I do as well, there were no incorruptible souls prior to the Parousia in the first century, and all souls went to Sheol to rest for their redemption in Jesus Christ, corruptible and bound by the LAW, which like I said, the idea ChrystyGrl presented was an idea inserted into the text, but rather was His existence of Him prior to Abraham......just as He claimed several times in being that of equal with God, that He came on the clouds, He had given life to the Father, Alpha and Omega, who had been pierced...etc. etc. and throughout the epistles the doctrine of Christ as Deity is everpresent all throughout Paul's Peter's and John's letters. Christ is part of the Godhead, and this doctrine, like I said, is nowhere even near new, and was obvious to first, the disciples, Paul, the early church fathers, and predominantly the entire body of Christ that has come, gone and is present today. That alone speaks volumes on the power of the "helper", the Holy Spirit/Ghost that has continued to bless the church since Jesus.
The arguements are fruitless in regards to the text. I have heard you all argue that "I AM" isn't even in the text, when it is rightly so in the LXX, and is rightly and liguisticlly implied by standard Herbraic interpretation of the language itself in regards to the application of the pronoun that we use in the English language today. The translators did a great job in representing the deity of Christ, becaue flatly, it is there...everywhere in the Holy Bible, and denying this very fact, is not only a danger to your faith, but a danger of preventing the extent and full blessings that you all would receive if you just embraced and surrendered to Christ.

You can't surrender to a man, or his teachings and actions...I won't...even if he died for me. But I can surrender to God, in which His very own sacrifce was not only prophetic and eschtological in nature, but also fulfilled not only Jewish law, but everything He had ever promised to each and every one of us.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-06-2009 at 11:36 PM..
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:59 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are absolutley right. The same goes for Greek when Jesus was referring to the exact phrasing used in the LXX in Exodus when God spoke to Moses, as He used with the Pharisees...proclaiming his deity, thus the elders sought to execute Him for doing so.

From the Septuagint for Exodus 3:14...I have the phrase bolded that is that same used in John 8:58

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

You see folks, there are plenty of places in scripture where Christ explicitly tells His audience who He really is, and although it is confusing to me that some have misinterpreted the scripture based on the the sole understanding of the flesh, it is just not rightly divided as it should have been, thus leading to an erred interpretation. Christ is God manifested in the flesh, and the scripture has made it available to all us to see it.


John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.
The same "I am" statement is made in verses throughout the NT... are we to suppose all of those reference Isaiah?

The Jews who were trying to kill Jesus had already decided to try to kill him... so this point is moot...

If Jesus had claimed to be God they would have stoned him on the spot.. that would be contrary to all they stand for... yet they didn't because they knew what he meant.. he is greater than Abraham because he is the fulfillment of the Messiah..

The same ἐγώ εἰμι is used here:
John 6:20
But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid."

also here.. is this man also claiming to be God?
John 9:9 Some claimed that he was. Others said, "No, he only looks like him." But he himself insisted, "I am the man."

Matt. 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many

I could list many.. but for some reason you assume he means I AM as in Jehovah in that passage for no reason other than trinity doctrine. Jesus is saying that men prophesied of him before Abraham.. not that he was alive before Abraham.. even the Jews understood that he referred to his being the Messiah... They did not believe him but they understood what he meant..

Check out some of the footnotes in your bible on the "I am" passage..

here is one: "...it can also mean 'I am he (the Christ).' " - World Bible Translation Center, 1992.

Take John 4:26..Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

same phrase ἐγώ εἰμι is used.. and who is he? the Messiah! of course..

Check out these others: Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 & 8; "it is I" in Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20 & "I am the one I claim to be" in John 8:24 & 28.

There is no reason to relate the I AM who I AM of Isaiah to that of Christ saying he is the Messiah.. That is truly just bad exegesis.. At least I did this facetiously... to make a point.. not to prove that Ehud was indeed God.. Come now.. you really have to come up with something better..

Are we to say that everyone who says I am is Jehovah? That is absurd...
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj,

Let's use what I earlier said in regards to you using scripture out of context to prove your point.



The above are two verses regarding a "savior"...in the context of the verses, the first is God being the savior for all mankind and the second is Ehud being a savior for the people in regards to the tax.
The grammar is straightforward, and the same, but the context of both verses are entirely different. You have indeed proved the point that the words are definitely the same, but the context of each area of scripture is entirely different....hence hermeneutics 101
Yep and I did this to point out that taking one verse with similar language and using it to prove another... is just bad hermeneutics..

This is what trinitarians do in order to prove Jesus is God. If it were an essential part of the Gospel to believe that Jesus is God.. you bet Jesus would have made sure it was well known! And why didn't he make it know that he was God? Because he simply wasn't.. The trinity doctrine came about in the 3rd to 4th century.. there is no way around that. Jesus is not God.



Quote:
In regards to Alpha and Omega, Christ claims the title that only God holds..not a representative title, the THE TITLE of God...before and after. The same goes for John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14..the context is that God is I AM THAT I AM...a phrase that denoted not only His omnipresence, but also in relation for Aaron, the people of Egypt, in order for them to recognize that Moses was indeed sent by God.
Again.. Jesus can claim a title of God without being God because God gave him all things .. God gave him the authority.. it was not his...
Trinitarians always seem to ignore that God is one and that Jesus is subjected to the Father, has a God, and worships his God.. this is not indicative of a God..

Quote:
The same manner is when Jesus is referring to Himself, as being in existence before Abraham, not in spirit or some incorruptible soul that first, if we are to follow proper Preterist exegesis which is what you represent as I do as well, there were no incorruptible souls prior to the Parousia in the first century, and all souls went to Sheol to rest for their redemption in Jesus Christ, corruptible and bound by the LAW, which like I said, the idea ChrystyGrl presented was an idea inserted into the text, but rather was His existence of Him prior to Abraham......just as He claimed several times in being that of equal with God, that He came on the clouds, He had given life to the Father, Alpha and Omega, who had been pierced...etc. etc. and throughout the epistles the doctrine of Christ as Deity is everpresent all throughout Paul's Peter's and John's letters. Christ is part of the Godhead, and this doctrine, like I said, is nowhere even near new, and was obvious to first, the disciples, Paul, the early church fathers, and predominantly the entire body of Christ that has come, gone and is present today. That alone speaks volumes on the power of the "helper", the Holy Spirit/Ghost that has continued to bless the church since Jesus.
Now here you are just reaching for straws.. there is absolutely no mention of Jesus being God until the formation of the Nicene creed in the late 3rd century.. even die hard trinitarians admit that..
The catholics claim that it was the 2nd century.. either way it is well after all of the disciples had died. This is a doctrine of MEN..

Quote:
The arguements are fruitless in regards to the text. I have heard you all argue that "I AM" isn't even in the text, when it is rightly so in the LXX, and is rightly and liguisticlly implied by standard Herbraic interpretation of the language itself in regards to the application of the pronoun that we use in the English language today. The translators did a great job in representing the deity of Christ, becaue flatly, it is there...everywhere in the Holy Bible, and denying this very fact, is not only a danger to your faith, but a danger of preventing the extent and full blessings that you all would receive if you just embraced and surrendered to Christ.
I never argued that I AM isn't even in the text.. you create a strawman here. I truly thought you were a better debater than that..

Quote:
You can't surrender to a man, or his teachings and actions...I won't...even if he died for me. But I can surrender to God, in which His very own sacrifce was not only prophetic and eschtological in nature, but also fulfilled not only Jewish law, but everything He had ever promised to each and every one of us.
Jesus is the image of God and you shouldn't surrender to him.. Surrender to God.. that was the intention. Everything Christ did pointed to God..

I challenge you to take Christ's words ONLY and make a case for the trinity..
If the trinity is true and Jesus is God then it should not be difficult at all.

USING Jesus' own words.. show me where he states he is God.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:14 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Because I didn't take anything out of context.


We aren't analysing context here, but grammar, and just to enlighten you all, these both are consistent in context because they are speaking of the same issue. God is I am...and Jesus is claiming His existence before Abraham..by using the very same verbage as what was penned in the LXX concerning the proclamation of both pre and post Abraham existence....this isn't about His soul or anything like some claim.....this claim is but a feeble insertion of an idea into the text...You must compare scripture with scripture, not ideas and ideals with scripture.

The denial of several points made here in this thread is beyond me, but it seems it is a satisfaction of the flesh, and the desire to limit God in what He can do. Several times in the scripture, we see Christ claim deity with His use of apocalyptic and parabled language, and God claiming in prophecy the events stricken upon Christ when referring to Himself. As far as I am concerned, the message by those that proclaim Christ's deity in this thread stand firm, and the house that is contrary in both their eisegesis and lack of proper understanding of the Greek and Hebrew text, as well as the inability to adhere to proper hermeneutical standards, all result in the failure to see what is plain to see.

Christ is Deity and part of the Godhead

Read:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.


The creeds may have not spent much time with eschatology, and that is where they failed, but they did spend large amounts of time on this very subject, and the work is out there to read, and I suggest those that believe Christ is not deity should pay more attention to the decades of work the early fathers spent on this subject, instead of placing their faith in the fallacy of the this illogical doctrine. Their hermeneutics are outstanding, and nothing I have said so far, has not been hashed out already over a thousand years ago.
Your problem lies in the fact that no son is the father.. if you can't say that Christ is the Father then Christ cannot be God because God is inexplicably referred to as God the Father, yet we don't see God the son used anywhere.. if this is such an important thing to believe (and many say it is essential for salvation) then it will be clear as day.. clear as the resurrection..

AGAIN- I challenge you to prove this by using ONLY Jesus' words.. if you can come up with an adequate argument I will admit defeat.. if you cannot.. then you must admit you believe Jesus is God simply because you want to and not because Jesus actually is or claimed to be.

I will not worship a man.. I worship the one who sent the man.. you worship a man when you worship Jesus.. that is called idolatry and is blaspheming the very spirit of God.. God is the one to be worshiped.. not the son.

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Old 11-07-2009, 06:05 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,059,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwoodpoint View Post
Boy this wears me out just reading some of these posts.
I AM...I just love that simplistic statement. God just IS. The beginning and the end. He just is...it is just more than we can comprehend. I don't claim to understand it all, nor really can anyone. We are just the clay and he is the potter. I just trust and believe...
Amen....driftwoodpoint! I am so thankful.....for the simplicity of the word of God.....leading one into all truth!

Matt.18:1-3
1. Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
2. And said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
3. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


One doesn't need to have a high IQ or even a low IQ to comprehend, understand.....just a heart of a child leaning upon God and His Holy Spirit.

For the natural man is always trying to figure out why every "i" is dotted, "t" is crossed to make sure one knows what every specific word used means.
It seems that some are going to such great lengths to make sure what God is saying is worth trusting....when in all reality are they really walking in faith!
God's word is spoken by His Holy Spirit whom came upon the Apostles and inspired them to write for us the holy Scriptures (Bible) and it is truly simple even a child will believe and trust it....the Bible is very clear about all one needs to know and trust God for their salvation and life.

But if a people continually need to look outside of God's word to all the other books, dictionaries, concordances and other peoples interpretation of what God's word is suppose to mean and is saying..... are they really trusting God and the leading of His Holy Spirit who is the great interpretor of the Father' truth found in His precious word! Or are they secretly doubting deep within their heart!

The evidence is there that Jesus is God....God is revealing it through faith by the power of His Holy Spirit....The faith given to one who will believe God no matter what and is given to them in the size of a mustard seed....and with that small measure of faith one can move mountains. The mountain of unbelief....is Jesus God, Yes, He is!!

If one will not let go and believe God, He will not reveal it to them! They just will not see the truth of it opened up to them.....that Jesus is God. Their hearts have been blinded because they are doubting or trusting possibly in themselves and their intellect not coming to the Lord with the heart open in faith like a child, allowing God to enlighten their hearts and minds to this beautiful, awesome truth.

Hebrews 11:6
6. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.



Blessings
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,129,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I will not worship a man.. I worship the one who sent the man.. you worship a man when you worship Jesus.. that is called idolatry and is blaspheming the very spirit of God.. God is the one to be worshiped.. not the son.
I agree with you 100%....Jesus was never thought to be God until the Church of Rome and Constantine got involved rewriting and editing the scriptures to fit their political agenda...why people don't study these things is beyond me. The bible is not inerrant and infallible....all you have to do is study the history and you will find that ANYONE who did not adhere to and agree to the doctrine and dogma of Rome was either exiled or executed...It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what was going on. The Trinity is a total fabrication of man....it was the only way Rome could integrate all the Pagans and heathen Gentiles into the church. The earliest of church fathers....of which there is multitudes of written evidence....never thought Jesus was God. Jesus was a man who achieved perfect and complete unity with God...he was ONE with God, just as we are called to be ONE with God. He is our Teacher and our Leader....he came to show us the true path to God....follow his footsteps, deny yourself and take up your cross and you will find the Kingdom and THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:06 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,319,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
AGAIN- I challenge you to prove this by using ONLY Jesus' words.. if you can come up with an adequate argument I will admit defeat.. if you cannot.. then you must admit you believe Jesus is God simply because you want to and not because Jesus actually is or claimed to be.
This challenge has the smell of fritos

Jas 3:15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like,

The only thing one can glean from this navel gazing challenge is that scripture did not record Jesus saying: "I am God", using those exact words. But why is that necessary to arrive at the correct understanding of who Jesus is? Scripture does give clear testimony that Jesus is God.

Paul states that every scripture is God-breathed, does he not?:

2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,

Why not allow "every" scripture to speak as to who Jesus is? It's all God-breathed.

Alabama
LSU

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-07-2009 at 11:50 AM.. Reason: content
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