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Old 11-07-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
This challenge has the smell of fritos

Jas 3:15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like,

The only thing one can glean from this navel gazing challenge is that scripture did not record Jesus saying: "I am God", using those exact words. But why is that necessary to arrive at the correct understanding of who Jesus is? Scripture does give clear testimony that Jesus is God.

Paul states that every scripture is God-breathed, does he not?:

2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,

Why not allow "every" scripture to speak as to who Jesus is? It's all God-breathed.

Alabama
LSU
I allow all sorts of scripture and have for 29 pages of this thread.. obviously it is impossible to glean from those.. a snippet here said by one guy matches up to a snippet there said by the other... none of which proves Jesus taught that he was God. So I will tell you why I want to see proof from Jesus' words.. To make it clear to the trinitarian that if Jesus himself made no mention of his being God then he is not. If it is essential to salvation.. he would have made it very clear.

John 18:20 "I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret."

Acts 1:1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach...

Therefore you should be able to find the entirety of what Jesus did and taught in Luke... or any of the gospels for that matter.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

If Jesus said nothing in secret and the gospels contain all that Jesus began to do and teach then there should be no problem for anyone to find the trinity from Jesus' words.

We could go on for another 29 pages pulling scripture from every part of the bible.. but what would that prove? So far it has not proven that Jesus claimed to be God. BUT if Jesus claimed to be God and it is recorded.. there is no other proof more convincing. In addition, the absence of Jesus teaching that he is God would also confirm that the trinity doctrine does not belong in the gospel of Christ.

Wouldn't you agree?
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
AGAIN- I challenge you to prove this by using ONLY Jesus' words.. if you can come up with an adequate argument I will admit defeat.. if you cannot.. then you must admit you believe Jesus is God simply because you want to and not because Jesus actually is or claimed to be.
Challenge? I never took this as a challenge at all. I know who Christ is, and just trying to spread the good news.
Quote:
I will not worship a man.. I worship the one who sent the man.. you worship a man when you worship Jesus.. that is called idolatry and is blaspheming the very spirit of God.. God is the one to be worshiped.. not the son.
Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

Katonjj, who is getting pierced here?

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Who is "I" in the above verse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yep and I did this to point out that taking one verse with similar language and using it to prove another... is just bad hermeneutics..
I have shown you where you erred in your hermeneutics. What you did regarding Ehud and God, is to point out that the same word "savior - ישע" in:

Isa. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Judges 3:15 Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin. (Ehud was the son of Gera.) The people sent him with their tax payment to King Eglon of Moab.

I have already given you a brief summary of how Hebrew works, I may have to start charging you for these lessons.

ישע - yasha is used for a variety of meanings and definitons. All you have to do is look at your concordance, which I am sure you have, and see the application of the word has several of them. What defines the word is the context. The Hebrew language is thought and prose...like poetry almost. And when Elohim is in the picture, the context is divine so salvation is proper is that regard, and when a man is in the picture, the salvation, or deliverance of divinity sourced from that man Ehud, is not even considered. So there is where you, and many err, which inevitably causes you to stumble further. This is called Exegesis. Several things come into play...audience, context, structure and so forth that make up your interpretation. And you have failed at almost all of them. Therefore, your interpretation is flawed from the start, and is in error. Once you correct them, your interpretation will clear up. I suggest a few books on ancient Hebrew, Greek, and maybe some studies and guides on how to develop proper exegetical interpretations. Just a suggestion. Don Preston is good, Dr. Birks, and maybe Jessie Miller. Lots of others...a good book to start with is this book

Quote:
This is what trinitarians do in order to prove Jesus is God. If it were an essential part of the Gospel to believe that Jesus is God.. you bet Jesus would have made sure it was well known! And why didn't he make it know that he was God? Because he simply wasn't.. The trinity doctrine came about in the 3rd to 4th century.. there is no way around that. Jesus is not God.
Monotheism worships only one God....so do I, but through the scripture and the revelation of Jesus Christ to first the disciple and apostles, and the church as a whole, I have seen, through allegoric and parabled passages that proclaim the equal nature of these three concepts into one. God is stil God...and Jesus is part of God, as well as the Holy Spirt. Limiting God in what He can do is not monotheistic, but, first of all contrary to scripture, and also and demotion of His divinity over all things known and unknown. You are focusing on the known, I focus on both and let them be The scriptrure is plain about who is who, and several times Christ used the same language only God used for Himself, and no man has that right but Christ, because He is God. God is already all in all through Christ. The life in the Son allows Him to have life in Himself.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.

You are baptised in all three, this cannot be done under the guise of a man, that is IDOLATRY.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
--Jesus, Matthew 28:19

Quote:
Again.. Jesus can claim a title of God without being God because God gave him all things .. God gave him the authority.. it was not his...
Was not Jesus conceived by the Holy Spirit? Christ is part of the Godhead.
The teaching of Christ not deity is false.

Quote:
Trinitarians always seem to ignore that God is one and that Jesus is subjected to the Father, has a God, and worships his God.. this is not indicative of a God..
He is subject to the Father, but He is also equal to the Father. His flesh is subject to the actions of His will, and His spirit must obey His will. Remember the tranfiguration...a classic event of the flesh, that He took on, being overcome by Him. This is one of the keys to understand the mercy He had on us...that He overcame what we can never overcome.

The whole reason why God manifested in the flesh, was so that the flesh, mankind, would see that He is God, and overcame the flesh, and carried out His plan. The Adamic, sinful, flesh that has plagued mankind since the beginning. The Canon is God's work with mankind, through the Jewish people to Christ. Adam sinned and destroyed the spritual life with God, the complete union with Him. Every jot and tittle of the Old Testament was not carried out as it played out, but was carefully devised and planned in the beginning of time. All the symbols, types and events that the Jewish nation, prophets, and people experienced all pointed to Christ, the event that God had ordained before the universe began. He knew that He Himself would have to sacrifice Himself for us, but He also knew that He had to have events recorded so that the revelation of it all, the revelation of Jesus Christ would be seen and interpreted correctly if you just surrender to that event....His sacrifice to save us all.

Quote:
Now here you are just reaching for straws.. there is absolutely no mention of Jesus being God until the formation of the Nicene creed in the late 3rd century.. even die hard trinitarians admit that..
Why would they come up with that idea?

Quote:
I never argued that I AM isn't even in the text.. you create a strawman here. I truly thought you were a better debater than that..
I remember it being you, but maybe I am wrong...my apology.
Quote:
Jesus is the image of God and you shouldn't surrender to him.. Surrender to God.. that was the intention. Everything Christ did pointed to God..
You have it backwards. Everything God did pointed to Christ.

Quote:
I challenge you to take Christ's words ONLY and make a case for the trinity..
If the trinity is true and Jesus is God then it should not be difficult at all.
USING Jesus' own words.. show me where he states he is God.
The creeds already did that...Read their work, because it is quite obvious you haven't, but other men's opinions on the creeds. Another grave mistake.

Also, I really want you to answer the question I asked above out of Zechariah 12.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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katojj,

What is your take on John 8:58 then?
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Wouldn't you agree?
No. But we still love you. LOL
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Jesus was never thought to be God until the Church of Rome and Constantine got involved rewriting and editing the scriptures to fit their political agenda..
Really...did you live in the first century?

Quote:
The bible is not inerrant and infallible....all you have to do is study the history and you will find that ANYONE who did not adhere to and agree to the doctrine and dogma of Rome was either exiled or executed...It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what was going on. The Trinity is a total fabrication of man....it was the only way Rome could integrate all the Pagans and heathen Gentiles into the church. The earliest of church fathers....of which there is multitudes of written evidence....never thought Jesus was God. Jesus was a man who achieved perfect and complete unity with God...he was ONE with God, just as we are called to be ONE with God. .
Conspiracy theory jargon...everyone is subjected to the flesh. Everyone fails in the flesh, even the barbaric church of Christ.

Quote:
He is our Teacher and our Leader....he came to show us the true path to God....follow his footsteps, deny yourself and take up your cross and you will find the Kingdom and THE ONE AND ONLY GOD
New Age talk here...gnostic and limiting the scope of God. There is no private interpreation and the scripture fully supplies the revelations of God in the flesh, Christ.

All God's work pointed to Christ, Himself manifest in the flesh.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

Phil 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Acts 20:27-28 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on [God] and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Collosian 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Matt 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Isa 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-07-2009 at 02:19 PM..
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Challenge? I never took this as a challenge at all. I know who Christ is, and just trying to spread the good news.
the challenge was to show Christ saying he is God.. not others.. Christ.

Quote:
Christ is God manifest in the flesh.
Your word.. Man's word.. yet God and Christ never said any such thing.

Quote:
Katonjj, who is getting pierced here?

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Who is "I" in the above verse?
Ok.. now notice that they look upon me. Me was pierced, wounded... they mourn for HIM... Notice how the me that is pierced seems to be different from the "him"? What kind of person says I will be pierced and then refers to himself as HIM?

That doesn't seem to be slightly odd to you?

Take a look at the passage in John 19:36-37
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

So how is it that in the quotation of Zechariah in John says "the one they have pierced" yet you are pointing at the "me" saying that Jesus must be God... Who got it right? is it me that has been pierced or is it him that has been pierced?

If you do the research you will see that even the early church fathers (who started some of this trinity stuff to begin with) quote Zech as John does and not with "me they have pierced".

Quote:
I have shown you where you erred in your hermeneutics. What you did regarding Ehud and God, is to point out that the same word "savior - ישע" in:

Isa. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Judges 3:15 Then the people of Israel cried out to the LORD for help. The LORD sent a savior to rescue them. It was Ehud, a left-handed man from the tribe of Benjamin. (Ehud was the son of Gera.) The people sent him with their tax payment to King Eglon of Moab.

I have already given you a brief summary of how Hebrew works, I may have to start charging you for these lessons.
Again... My point was not to prove Ehud was the same "savior" as God nor was it to prove anything other than what you keep trying to prove to me. One cannot take two verses such as those above and piece them together to say Ehud is God anymore than you can take Jesus' use of the authority given him by God and say that means he is God.

You accuse me of doing what I am trying to point out that trinitarians continually do to try to prove that Jesus is God.

ישע
Quote:
- yasha is used for a variety of meanings and definitons. All you have to do is look at your concordance, which I am sure you have, and see the application of the word has several of them. What defines the word is the context. The Hebrew language is thought and prose...like poetry almost. And when Elohim is in the picture, the context is divine so salvation is proper is that regard, and when a man is in the picture, the salvation, or deliverance of divinity sourced from that man Ehud, is not even considered. So there is where you, and many err, which inevitably causes you to stumble further. This is called Exegesis. Several things come into play...audience, context, structure and so forth that make up your interpretation. And you have failed at almost all of them. Therefore, your interpretation is flawed from the start, and is in error. Once you correct them, your interpretation will clear up. I suggest a few books on ancient Hebrew, Greek, and maybe some studies and guides on how to develop proper exegetical interpretations. Just a suggestion. Don Preston is good, Dr. Birks, and maybe Jessie Miller. Lots of others...a good book to start with is this book
Strawman because my intention was NEVER to prove that Ehud was God... you really need to try to understand what I say as I have said it several times now.. I WAS attempting to prove the very thing you are proving.. you cannot take a portion of scripture from here and mix and match it with others to prove Jesus is God.. that is absurd. So please drop this point as we clearly AGREE! Using the I AM statement of God and then pointing to the I AM statement of Jesus and saying that is Jesus claiming to be God is just as absurd.

Quote:
Monotheism worships only one God....so do I, but through the scripture and the revelation of Jesus Christ to first the disciple and apostles, and the church as a whole, I have seen, through allegoric and parabled passages that proclaim the equal nature of these three concepts into one. God is stil God...and Jesus is part of God, as well as the Holy Spirt. Limiting God in what He can do is not monotheistic, but, first of all contrary to scripture, and also and demotion of His divinity over all things known and unknown. You are focusing on the known, I focus on both and let them be The scriptrure is plain about who is who, and several times Christ used the same language only God used for Himself, and no man has that right but Christ, because He is God. God is already all in all through Christ. The life in the Son allows Him to have life in Himself.
In an earlier post I listed scripture that Jesus kept no secrets of the gospel hidden.. that all that Jesus was an is can be found in the Gospels... Trinitarians are not monotheistic in my mind as they worship a God-Spirit and a God-man... two very different substances. But that is up to you to reconcile within yourself.

The focus on what is known will never fail.. the focus on the unknown well then you start worshiping things and people who are not God as we see trinitarians do.

Quote:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

In other words, the life in the Father is in Him, so that He has given that life to His Son, so He can have life in Himself.
So you are saying that God is limited and can only have life in himself by giving life to his son?

Quote:
You are baptised in all three, this cannot be done under the guise of a man, that is IDOLATRY.
If you read the scripture properly you will see:
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

water baptism symbolizes spiritual baptism.. Jesus never baptized others with water... did you not see that? God baptizes with the Holy Spirit as he baptized Jesus after his symbolic water baptism..

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
--Jesus, Matthew 28:19
Give credit where credit is due.. The Father created the gospel.. the Son delivered it and the holy spirit makes it possible to pass on. Now I could make another thread on the Holy Spirit so we can discuss how IT is a force rather than a he... but ... I don't think this is the proper time nor place to get into it.

Quote:
Was not Jesus conceived by the Holy Spirit? Christ is part of the Godhead.
The teaching of Christ not deity is false.
Again.. opinion. if you believe that Jesus was conceived by a spirit.. then I have little doubt you will never reach the understanding of why Christ cannot be God.

Quote:
He is subject to the Father, but He is also equal to the Father. His flesh is subject to the actions of His will, and His spirit must obey His will. Remember the tranfiguration...a classic event of the flesh, that He took on, being overcome by Him. This is one of the keys to understand the mercy He had on us...that He overcame what we can never overcome.
If Jesus was God then there is no reason why he shouldn't overcome sin in the flesh.. if it were possible for God to be contained in flesh... then that divine flesh would not be like us un-divine flesh at all...


Quote:
The whole reason why God manifested in the flesh, was so that the flesh, mankind, would see that He is God, and overcame the flesh, and carried out His plan. The Adamic, sinful, flesh that has plagued mankind since the beginning. The Canon is God's work with mankind, through the Jewish people to Christ. Adam sinned and destroyed the spritual life with God, the complete union with Him. Every jot and tittle of the Old Testament was not carried out as it played out, but was carefully devised and planned in the beginning of time. All the symbols, types and events that the Jewish nation, prophets, and people experienced all pointed to Christ, the event that God had ordained before the universe began. He knew that He Himself would have to sacrifice Himself for us, but He also knew that He had to have events recorded so that the revelation of it all, the revelation of Jesus Christ would be seen and interpreted correctly if you just surrender to that event....His sacrifice to save us all.



Why would they come up with that idea?



I remember it being you, but maybe I am wrong...my apology.


You have it backwards. Everything God did pointed to Christ.



The creeds already did that...Read their work, because it is quite obvious you haven't, but other men's opinions on the creeds. Another grave mistake.

Also, I really want you to answer the question I asked above out of Zechariah 12.
I have read the creeds.. The apostles creed is simple and straighforward.. then we see the Nicene and Athanasia Creed being a mile long.. do you know the dates of the creeds?


The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of
Heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ,
His only Son, our Lord Who was conceived by
the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered
under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He
arose again from the dead; He ascended into
Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God
the Father Almighty, from thence He shall come
to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion
of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection
of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

So very straightforward.. no mention of Jesus as God..etc. Wonder why?

The term "arian" was used to discribe those who would not accept the Council of Constintanople's creed.. IN 380ish AD.. so what you adhere to is a strictly Catholic idea.. you should know this. Yet you continue to believe that the disciples and apostles held the same belief of the trinity. This is history, that the apostles never taught that Jesus is God..
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
katojj,

What is your take on John 8:58 then?
I think I have already stated my position on this passage so I will refer you to a writer's 4 part expose on just this verse...

An excerpt:
"So when Jesus said that Abraham had seen his day, he was making a deliberate claim that he was the Messiah. He was really saying 'I am the Messiah Abraham saw in his vision.' " - p. 35, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, 1975, The Westminster Press. (Cf. footnote for Jn 8:56 in The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1973 ed., Oxford University Press.)

The footnote for John 8:58 in the very trinitarian Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version says:
"...it can also mean 'I am he (the Christ).' " - World Bible Translation Center, 1992.
Here is the website: Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,130,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There is no private interpreation and the scripture fully supplies the revelations of God in the flesh, Christ.
Do you honestly believe that God cannot reveal things to people today.... unless it is found in a bible....that was put together by men?

Say it isn't so?
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
No. But we still love you. LOL
That's nice to know! Most people just condemn me to hell.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Do you honestly believe that God cannot reveal things to people today.... unless it is found in a bible....that was put together by men?

Say it isn't so?
Personally or prophetically?
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