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Old 11-08-2009, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
An excerpt:
"So when Jesus said that Abraham had seen his day, he was making a deliberate claim that he was the Messiah. He was really saying 'I am the Messiah Abraham saw in his vision.' " - p. 35, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, 1975, The Westminster Press. (Cf. footnote for Jn 8:56 in The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1973 ed., Oxford University Press.)

The footnote for John 8:58 in the very trinitarian Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version says:
"...it can also mean 'I am he (the Christ).' " - World Bible Translation Center, 1992.
Here is the website: Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1
...and? This adds further wieght to the debate I present, and adds nothing to yours, yet the implication you present of a fleshly king/messiah and not a divine one, which is the very reason why the Jews did not see it in the first place. You are falling into the same trap.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Your word.. Man's word.. yet God and Christ never said any such thing.
Or really, and the Gospel was not breathed by God Himself?

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί - manifest in the flesh

Quote:
Ok.. now notice that they look upon me. Me was pierced, wounded... they mourn for HIM... Notice how the me that is pierced seems to be different from the "him"? What kind of person says I will be pierced and then refers to himself as HIM?
It appears here that you don't undersatnd the verse. God is speaking and talking about Himself...

Zech 12:10 And I (God)will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me(God) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him (God), as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him(God), as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

The scripture here points to God directly that Christ fulfilled.
God is pierced and they look on God, and they mourn for him, God, and there is bitterness for him, God. Your reasoning that there are two different subject, one secret and the other known is gnostic. The scripture was fulfilled in Christ, God manifest in the flesh. The scripture here is prophetic in Christ's work, and there is no secret message hidden here that hasn't already been revealed in the gospel of John.

Quote:
Take a look at the passage in John 19:36-37
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.
Yes indeed...the ONE, the Holy One, the Holy One of Israel...this is yet another series of scripture that reveals the true mystery and nature of Christ...because in Zechariah 12 God is speaking of Himself, and the scripture was fulfilled in Christ, Christ is God in the flesh.

Quote:
So how is it that in the quotation of Zechariah in John says "the one they have pierced" yet you are pointing at the "me" saying that Jesus must be God... Who got it right? is it me that has been pierced or is it him that has been pierced?
I really don't understand your confusion here.

Quote:
If you do the research you will see that even the early church fathers (who started some of this trinity stuff to begin with) quote Zech as John does and not with "me they have pierced".
They are wrong. So is everybody else that think this very scripture that was fulfiled in Christ and in reference to God didn't happen, or happened in part, or whatever the case is. They are flat out worng.

Quote:
Again... My point was not to prove Ehud was the same "savior" as God nor was it to prove anything other than what you keep trying to prove to me. One cannot take two verses such as those above and piece them together to say Ehud is God anymore than you can take Jesus' use of the authority given him by God and say that means he is God.
Like I said, the difference between your example and mine is straightforward liguistics...the grammar and use of word is correct, but your context doesn't doesn't support the arguement, mine does, exegetically.

Quote:
You accuse me of doing what I am trying to point out that trinitarians continually do to try to prove that Jesus is God.
I am not accusing you of anything. I am teling you that your belief in the matter is wrong and lacks much support from the scripture. Everything has to be balanced with scripture, and if it can't support your arguement, then it is false...and that is what I have seen. This doctrine you ascribe to is in serious error, and if it isn't corrected, the true revelation and blessings of being Christian is withheld.

Quote:
you cannot take a portion of scripture from here and mix and match it with others to prove Jesus is God.. that is absurd. So please drop this point as we clearly AGREE! Using the I AM statement of God and then pointing to the I AM statement of Jesus and saying that is Jesus claiming to be God is just as absurd.
Your context was unrelated. Mine was.

Quote:
In an earlier post I listed scripture that Jesus kept no secrets of the gospel hidden.. that all that Jesus was an is can be found in the Gospels... Trinitarians are not monotheistic in my mind as they worship a God-Spirit and a God-man... two very different substances. But that is up to you to reconcile within yourself.
It is obvious you don't understand the Trinitarian Order. There is One God...Mono.....and in that God..there are three parts that have been revealed to mankind....Father, Son and Holy Spirit...worshipped as One.
Read your Bible!.

Quote:
So you are saying that God is limited and can only have life in himself by giving life to his son?
I never limit His capabilities. The scripture is the revelation of Jesus Christ...all things before Him pointing to Him, and all things after Him pointing to Him. Christ is Deity....any other belief on the matter is false.

Quote:
If you read the scripture properly you will see:
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

water baptism symbolizes spiritual baptism.. Jesus never baptized others with water... did you not see that? God baptizes with the Holy Spirit as he baptized Jesus after his symbolic water baptism..
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus administered the rights of Baptism and was there during it:

John 3:22 says:
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea, and there he tarried with them, and baptized."

Again it is related to John 3:25-26

"Then there arose a question between (some) of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all (men) come to him.

John 1:25 "And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?"

Either way, the baptism was one in the name of the Trinity, under Christ...who if was just a man, would be idolatry.

Quote:
The Father created the gospel.. the Son delivered it and the holy spirit makes it possible to pass on.
The entire canon points to Christ, backwards and forewards. You believe the Father created the gospel, but yet you deny the very text in it that proclaims that Christ is God in the Flesh? Why?

Quote:
Again.. opinion. if you believe that Jesus was conceived by a spirit.. then I have little doubt you will never reach the understanding of why Christ cannot be God.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Quote:
If Jesus was God then there is no reason why he shouldn't overcome sin in the flesh.(He DID). if it were possible for God to be contained in flesh(Why not?..He's God)... then that divine flesh would not be like us un-divine flesh at all..(It was Flesh and Bled, but remember after He left the tomb and what He said).
Now you're getting somewhere on the mystery....

Jesus said the kingdom is within us, flesh and bones could never enter the kingdom, and:

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God

The spirit is not of the flesh.


Quote:
The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of
Heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ,
His only Son, our Lord Who was conceived by
the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered
under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He
arose again from the dead; He ascended into
Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God
the Father Almighty, from thence He shall come
to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion
of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection
of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

So very straightforward.. no mention of Jesus as God..etc. Wonder why?
Christ our Lord? Conceived by the Holy Spirit?
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:25 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That's nice to know! Most people just condemn me to hell.
Now who would do a thing like that? LOL

My accusers send me to hell too. I go there each Saturday afternoon. It's not to bad really, a few long island ice tea's (with a squeeze of lemon) to prepare me, a signature cigar , and then the Alabama Tide game with all my other hell bound buddy's. Our wifes complain that we smell like hell (after the cigars), but it's OK, we like it.

Unfortunately, the one's that send me to hell don't know what I know:

1Ti 1:15 stedfast is the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners--first of whom I am;

2Ti 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,
2Ti 1:10 and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news,
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Personally or prophetically?
Either
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
...and? This adds further wieght to the debate I present, and adds nothing to yours, yet the implication you present of a fleshly king/messiah and not a divine one, which is the very reason why the Jews did not see it in the first place. You are falling into the same trap.
Look as a preterist you must agree that the kingdom is not fleshly but is part of the spiritual while in the flesh.. right? As in the kingdom is not of this world because it is spiritual yet we apply the kingdom to our lives while we still live.

So what you are saying is that I am denying that the message of Christ is divine when I do not. I fully understand that Jesus was not a fleshly king but he was a Messiah or anointed while still flesh.

You say that the Jews thought he was a fleshly King and that the Messiah was to lead them in revolt against the Romans.. right? Yet Abraham did not see it that way. This is what Jesus is explaining to him. That Jesus is the fulfillment of a spiritual revolution not a physical one.

So you misrepresent my position.. perhaps I don't make myself clear or perhaps you are confused because of the claim that Jesus is not God.

Here is the promise given to Abraham:
Genesis 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Notice that seed is singular, right?
Throughout John 8 Jesus is trying to show the Jews that the "seed of Abraham" has nothing to do with blood-relation but spiritual-relation to Abraham.. He states that if they were true descendants of Abraham they would recognize the truth that Christ speaks.

When Christ says that by believing in him they shall not see death.. this is where they get confused again.

John 8:52 At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.

So they are still thinking of physical things not the spiritual death and the spiritual truth.

Then he shows that Abraham was looking forward to the spiritual cleansing that Jesus brought... John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
Abraham envisioned Christ's day because Abraham knew it was the spiritual that needed restoration. The people were lacking in spiritual capacity.

Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

The people in Abraham's day hoped for the salvation and promises that were showed to him but were received through Christ at a later date..

So in verse 58 Christ is saying that the plan was for Christ to usher in a spiritual revolution from before Abraham.. The plan was to have a Christ and he is (I am he) the Christ that was planned before Abraham was born.

Matthew 13:17 "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Genesis 17:8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

Psalm 39:12 "Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear to my cry; Do not be silent at my tears; For I am a stranger with You, A sojourner like all my fathers.

The reconciliation of Man and God is the result of God's promise to Abraham.. not the physical land as that cannot be everlasting... but to truly be children of God in Spirit.

Hope that helps so that you can see that I don't think it is a fleshy kingdom and never have. There was a separation from God by man's own will.. Jesus was sent as mediator to reconcile man to God.. so that we are not just sojourners but residents of the kingdom of God.

Why do you think Hebrews 2 was written? To me it seems like a refutation of Christ being God...
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Katonjj,

You need to read all of Hebrews as it is the same discourse...you can't take one chapter to prove your point..it is meaningless without the wieght of the entire book.

Again, your claim is lacking foundational scriptural support, as mine is not.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj,

you can't take one chapter to prove your point..it is meaningless without the weight of the entire book.
.
While it would be dangerious to take one word, or one verse out of context to prove a questionable point, the use of a whole chapter is , well, thats a different story.

If there is a whole chapter that a person quotes to support his ideas, then while you may still disagree with him , (Cuz in fact the guy may still be wrong) the use of a whole chapter of the Bible suggests that there was an effort made by the Bible student to gather support for his idea.
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
While it would be dangerious to take one word, or one verse out of context to prove a questionable point, the use of a whole chapter is , well, thats a different story.

If there is a whole chapter that a person quotes to support his ideas, then while you may still disagree with him , (Cuz in fact the guy may still be wrong) the use of a whole chapter of the Bible suggests that there was an effort made by the Bible student to gather support for his idea.
Depending on the discourse. It is obvious that Hebrews are all in the same discourse. Hebrews is a letter to the Jewish Christians revelaing the mystery of Christ, in that He was God maifested in the flesh.

This doctrine is contrary to the Word of God....every bit of it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Or really, and the Gospel was not breathed by God Himself?
The bible does not say "Jesus is God" or "God in three persons" humans do..

So using the Gospels of the NT.. show me where those two phrases are and I will agree.. If that is what is said in the bible then there would be no discussion here.. It doesn't say that.. it is men that say that.

Quote:
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί - manifest in the flesh
Look at the original greek here... theos doesn't even exist. HE was manifest in the flesh... ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί .. where as the KJV has Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί

1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus

"Reproduced below is the text of 1 Timothy 3:16–4:3 from Codex A, as presented in the photographic facsimile volume published by the British Museum in 1879. Of particular interest here is the reading in 3:16, where it may be seen that the manuscript reads ΘC "God was manifested in the flesh," employing the usual abbreviation ΘC for ΘEOC, with a stroke over the letters to indicate an abbreviation. However, textual critics believe that the ink in the center of the Θ and the stroke above were added by a corrector in modern times. Reasons for this belief are the color of the ink, and the fact that a "dot" has been placed in the Θ instead of a line. Tregelles writes, "The ink in which this has been done in A is sufficiently modern and black to declare its recent application" (An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament, London, 1854). Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC "He who was manifested in the flesh." In the photograph below the ΘC in 3:16 is circled. Further down, in verse 4:3, there is another ΘC circled for comparison. Click on the circled areas for a larger view. " Codex Alexandrinus, 1 Timothy 3:16

You can derive what you wish from it. Jesus was flesh (in contrast to him being a god or spirit). So this verse actually proves the same as here:

Matt 16:17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus as a man did not reveal it but God did... through Jesus who was flesh. Not Jesus' power but God's from heaven not God from Jesus.

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

If you say that Christ is God aren't you saying that he wasn't truly flesh and blood like we are flesh and blood?

Quote:
It appears here that you don't undersatnd the verse. God is speaking and talking about Himself...

Zech 12:10 And I (God)will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me(God) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him (God), as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him(God), as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Grammatically the pronouns do not match.. you do realize this? You are saying that God refers to himself first as ME.. then as HIM?
In general, only the following passages are accepted as referring to the messiah:
  • Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
  • Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
  • Ezekiel 38:16
  • Hosea 3:4-3:5
  • Micah 4
  • Zephaniah 3:9
  • Zechariah 14:9
  • Daniel 10:14

Quote:
The scripture here points to God directly that Christ fulfilled.
God is pierced and they look on God, and they mourn for him, God, and there is bitterness for him, God. Your reasoning that there are two different subject, one secret and the other known is gnostic. The scripture was fulfilled in Christ, God manifest in the flesh. The scripture here is prophetic in Christ's work, and there is no secret message hidden here that hasn't already been revealed in the gospel of John.
You can believe as you wish. The fact is that it was Judaism that was awaiting a messiah.. they did not recognize the messiah because of confusion as to his purpose... Here is an article about the facts of the Messiah according to Judaism:
The concept of the messiah seems to have developed in later Judaism. The Torah contains no specific reference to him, though some Jewish scholars have pointed out that it does speak of the "End of Days," which is the time of the messiah.
The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.
Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.
Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel. The Jewish Messiah - ReligionFacts

Christ's divinity is not the part the Jews got wrong.. they believed he would carry them to be the greatest physical nation not the greatest spiritual nation... that was their error and why they didn't recognize him as the Messiah.

Quote:
Yes indeed...the ONE, the Holy One, the Holy One of Israel...this is yet another series of scripture that reveals the true mystery and nature of Christ...because in Zechariah 12 God is speaking of Himself, and the scripture was fulfilled in Christ, Christ is God in the flesh.
Yes and you are saying that the "me" in the passage in Zech 12 is correct yet it is repeated in this passage as "the one".. so does the Zech 12 passage only refer to Jesus or to God? It cannot be both as you would have it be. Obviously such things were not evident until after Christ was wounded.. if you say that the "me" is God and the "him" is also God..then there is no evidence of christ in that verse...

Quote:
They are wrong. So is everybody else that think this very scripture that was fulfiled in Christ and in reference to God didn't happen, or happened in part, or whatever the case is. They are flat out worng.
Then I would say that if they are wrong on that account they are also wrong about other things...the trinity for one, divinity of Christ being the second....

Quote:
Like I said, the difference between your example and mine is straightforward liguistics...the grammar and use of word is correct, but your context doesn't doesn't support the arguement, mine does, exegetically.
Yet I showed you there are many instances when someone says "I am" and so those people are also God?

Exegetically speaking.. God said he is the I AM WHO I AM.. Christ only said ..I AM... That is not straightforward linguistics.. An example of it being straightforward would be if Christ stated "I am who I am" then it would be an exact statement... simply saying "I am" is not indicative of the title given by God.. It is as much a stretch as Ehud being God by saying he is a savior.

Quote:
I am not accusing you of anything. I am teling you that your belief in the matter is wrong and lacks much support from the scripture. Everything has to be balanced with scripture, and if it can't support your arguement, then it is false...and that is what I have seen. This doctrine you ascribe to is in serious error, and if it isn't corrected, the true revelation and blessings of being Christian is withheld.
My doctrine is simple... Jesus is a man, the mediator. God is the ONLY ONE true God and ALONE created the world and all that is in it. That is supported word for word in scripture... Jesus is God and God is three in one is found NOWHERE in scripture.. so you are the one without scriptural backing for your doctrine, not me!

Quote:
Your context was unrelated. Mine was.
Again.. the context in both passages are not the same.. totally unrelated. Jesus is speaking about before Abraham he was planned.. God is telling Moses that he is I am who I am.. in response to Moses' question of what he shall say to the people if they ask God's name... No one is asking Jesus' name in the verse "before Abraham was, I am" That is not his name but a continuation of the sentence... How is it you miss that the context is not the same?

Quote:
It is obvious you don't understand the Trinitarian Order. There is One God...Mono.....and in that God..there are three parts that have been revealed to mankind....Father, Son and Holy Spirit...worshipped as One.
Read your Bible!.
Yet one is spirit, one is flesh, and one is spirit.. so they are not one in substance. You may worship them as one in your mind.. but that does not make them one substance. If I worship a Cow and say it is God and worship them both as the same ONE God... that doesn't make the Cow God.. not even close.. I am actually making an IDOL out of the cow.. this is the same thing trinitarians do with Jesus. If Jesus were one with God then we would not see the person Jesus in heaven as he would cease to be Jesus and thus become God again. Take the Holy Spirit for example.. the Holy Spirit ceases to be the Holy Spirit in heaven.. there is no mention of it being separate still, yet Jesus remains separate.. why is this?

Quote:
I never limit His capabilities. The scripture is the revelation of Jesus Christ...all things before Him pointing to Him, and all things after Him pointing to Him. Christ is Deity....any other belief on the matter is false.
You have it backwards... ALL things point to God! always!

1 Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
John 15:8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Even Jesus himself points to God not to himself... All things point to GOD!

Quote:
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus administered the rights of Baptism and was there during it:

John 3:22 says:
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea, and there he tarried with them, and baptized."

Again it is related to John 3:25-26

"Then there arose a question between (some) of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all (men) come to him.

John 1:25 "And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?"

Either way, the baptism was one in the name of the Trinity, under Christ...who if was just a man, would be idolatry.
No not idolatry simply pointing to God. If Christ had done anything for his own glory being a human.. then yes it would be idolatry but in this case the name of Jesus points to God! ALL things point to God who gives ALL things.
Quote:
The entire canon points to Christ, backwards and forewards. You believe the Father created the gospel, but yet you deny the very text in it that proclaims that Christ is God in the Flesh? Why?
Because there is no text that proclaims "Christ is God in the Flesh" that is why!

Quote:
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.



Now you're getting somewhere on the mystery....

Jesus said the kingdom is within us, flesh and bones could never enter the kingdom, and:

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God

The spirit is not of the flesh.




Christ our Lord? Conceived by the Holy Spirit?
To me conceived here is not the act of conception but the bringing forth. So that the holy spirit brought forth the Messiah in Jesus but it is not the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary. Jesus was brought up by his parents who were fully aware that he was the "anointed one".. anointed by the holy spirit..

You seem to imply that it was the holy spirit sperm and egg of mary that combined to create the embryo of Jesus.. I think that is hogwash..

And you don't actually answer my question about why the apostle's creed doesn't mention the "fact" that Jesus is God.. yet later we see it in the other creeds.. perhaps because the trinity was formulated by men?
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj,

You need to read all of Hebrews as it is the same discourse...you can't take one chapter to prove your point..it is meaningless without the wieght of the entire book.

Again, your claim is lacking foundational scriptural support, as mine is not.
Again.. you say you can use one verse to support your foundation yet I must use the whole chapter.. then using the whole chapter is not good enough so I must use the whole book.. then I suppose you will say that that is not good enough and I must use the whole NT.. next the whole bible..

You are putting limits on me that you do not apply to yourself..

throughout this whole discussion you have used singular verses coupled with other singular verses to prove your point but now you say one cannot do that..

If that is the case.. then you damage your support more than mine.

As I said before, you cannot disprove my position.. God is the only true God.. the ONE and ONLY God.. Jesus is his son and delivered the words of God. Jesus is the man, the mediator between God and man.

You add in that Jesus is God when there is no proof to support that.
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