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Old 10-27-2009, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
Kat . . are you agnostic??? I thought I read that in your About Me Section . . but I may be thinking of someone else? You are extremely articulate and intelligent . . . I don't believe God is a triune or the trinity as some teach it.
I answered this earlier, but I thought I may as well give you a little background about how I came to these conclusion (in a general sense).. I started out thinking that if God has a spirit... is a spirit then how can his spirit be a separate person? I mean what substance is left then? Obviously God has no physical body as we have because he is spirit. It was really hard for me to reconcile that God splits in two spirits, one travels the world and the other sits in heaven. To me God's spirit is God and they are not separate.

So then to see that Jesus started his ministry upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit I wondered how Jesus could be God yet take on God... I mean if Jesus were God yet he needed God's spirit to perform miracles and such.. how then can he be God?

Anyway after that I begun to study scripture and came to the conclusion that God is not triune. There is no reason for Christ to have been God.. IMHO.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:39 AM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,772,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I answered this earlier, but I thought I may as well give you a little background about how I came to these conclusion (in a general sense).. I started out thinking that if God has a spirit... is a spirit then how can his spirit be a separate person? I mean what substance is left then? Obviously God has no physical body as we have because he is spirit. It was really hard for me to reconcile that God splits in two spirits, one travels the world and the other sits in heaven. To me God's spirit is God and they are not separate.

So then to see that Jesus started his ministry upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit I wondered how Jesus could be God yet take on God... I mean if Jesus were God yet he needed God's spirit to perform miracles and such.. how then can he be God?

Anyway after that I begun to study scripture and came to the conclusion that God is not triune. There is no reason for Christ to have been God.. IMHO.
Good post, Kat. I always learn from your post. Thanks for sharing your insight.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Good post, Kat. I always learn from your post. Thanks for sharing your insight.
I learn from yours too.. See what happens we we start to give in to our intellect?
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:05 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
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Not really sure If you meant to put Jesus is God, or Jesus as God, But I believe that Jesus is God.

He is and always was in the beginning just as well as The Father and The Holy Spirit. Everywhere you see God, well that was Jesus also. The Father was never seen, so that was Jesus in the OT that was seen by some.

Jacob didn't wrestle with The Father, He wrestled with Jesus. Moses didn't see The Father, He saw Jesus. He was always there and will always be there.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Not really sure If you meant to put Jesus is God, or Jesus as God, But I believe that Jesus is God.

He is and always was in the beginning just as well as The Father and The Holy Spirit. Everywhere you see God, well that was Jesus also. The Father was never seen, so that was Jesus in the OT that was seen by some.

Jacob didn't wrestle with The Father, He wrestled with Jesus. Moses didn't see The Father, He saw Jesus. He was always there and will always be there.
So then you forget about the Holy Spirit altogether?

Does Jesus replace the Holy Spirit in your version of Christianity?

This is what I see all the time yet doesn't the bible say that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is not forgiven? I think that applies to attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to another, wouldn't you say?

Also, it is very clear that Moses saw the Holy Spirit and Jacob wrestled men and God.. Genesis 32:28 but then in Genesis 35 we see that God blesses him then changes his name? Yet you say Jacob overcame God or in your version Jesus physically?

How do you reconcile the two accounts without forgetting about the Holy Spirit?
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:44 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,344,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So then you forget about the Holy Spirit altogether?

Does Jesus replace the Holy Spirit in your version of Christianity?

This is what I see all the time yet doesn't the bible say that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is not forgiven? I think that applies to attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to another, wouldn't you say?

Also, it is very clear that Moses saw the Holy Spirit and Jacob wrestled men and God.. Genesis 32:28 but then in Genesis 35 we see that God blesses him then changes his name? Yet you say Jacob overcame God or in your version Jesus physically?

How do you reconcile the two accounts without forgetting about the Holy Spirit?
You again. LOL, I didn't forget about The Holy Spirit, He is and was always there.

Jesus didn't replace The Holy Spirit they are one. When God appeared it is called a theophany. Jesus even said The Father was never seen. So, that leave only two options. Jesus or the Holy Spirit, they are one, you see one you see the other.

Jesus was the person walking around in the Fire, but where was the Holy Spirit, well He was there also? They work together. You can't separate them. The Father could not be seen by human eyes even to this day. People are seeing visions of Jesus, but never the Father. The Holy Spirit is there because the Holy Spirit is the persons that allows for you to see Jesus without dieing and His grace.

The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us. A person would have to understand the roles of God to understand how He works.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
You again. LOL, I didn't forget about The Holy Spirit, He is and was always there.

Jesus didn't replace The Holy Spirit they are one. When God appeared it is called a theophany. Jesus even said The Father was never seen. So, that leave only two options. Jesus or the Holy Spirit, they are one, you see one you see the other.

Jesus was the person walking around in the Fire, but where was the Holy Spirit, well He was there also? They work together. You can't separate them. The Father could not be seen by human eyes even to this day. People are seeing visions of Jesus, but never the Father. The Holy Spirit is there.

The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us.
So I can understand where you are coming from:
You don't believe the holy spirit and Jesus are two separate persons in the Godhead? But Jesus and God are? I am confused.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:00 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,344,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So I can understand where you are coming from:
You don't believe the holy spirit and Jesus are two separate persons in the Godhead? But Jesus and God are? I am confused.
The Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Father, The Holy Spirit is not Jesus or the Father. They have their own personality and role, yet one God.

I don't worship three Gods, I worship one God.

God is not like us, He is so powerful that He can be three person within Himself, He is God.

You are one person with many different roles. I am only quessing that you are female, so you could be a mother, daughter, aunt, niece, grandmother, cousin, and maybe a wife, yet you are not 7 different persons. You have different roles.

If you are married you can't act like a daughter to Him, that would be out of place.

God is just like that. God is so powerful He can be three persons, yet one God. Our little brains sometimes can't grasp the consept.

If God can create the world out of nothing, open a donkeys mouth to speak, part the red sea, I don't see why it would be a problem with Him doing anything.

We as humans have a limited understanding of God.

An egg has three parts. The hard shell, the white, and the yoke, but one egg. Not three eggs, one egg.

I don't know if you like or listen to Benny Hinn, but he gives a good example of How the Holy Spirit works, the Father, and Jesus.

The videos can be kind of long but you might benefit by listening and get a better understanding of the roles of God.

The video is called The person of the Holy Spirit.

Here is the first video and it goes up to 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w79G3...eature=related

Very good. If you are interesting in understanding God in this way, you can watch the videos and then maybe you will understand where I am coming from. It would take me all night to really explain, and I honestly don't really have the time.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-27-2009 at 10:19 PM..
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
The Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Father, The Holy Spirit is not Jesus or the Father. They have their own personality and role, yet one God.
But you said that Jesus and the holy spirit were in the burning bush...
Yet the scripture on says there is one person:
Exodus 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

So how many were present in the bush?

Quote:
I don't worship three Gods, I worship one God.
That's a common assertion for trinitarians.

Quote:
God is not like us, He is so powerful that He can be three person within Himself, He is God.
Would you also call a schizophrenic powerful? Seems like I'm being sarcastic but I truly want to know why it seems to you that it is alright for God to have three personalities but not for a human (who is made in God's image) to have three personalities within himself (if you do believe schizophrenia is a mental problem).

Quote:
You are one person with many different roles. I am only quessing that you are female, so you could be a mother, daughter, aunt, niece, grandmother, cousin, and maybe a wife, yet you are not 7 different persons. You have different roles.
True.. I am all of those (except the grandmother but that isn't too far in the future either). However, my wife personality doesn't just go off on it's own. They are all still within myself. Nor do they have their own personalities.. They are still just me. If God was just one being but had different roles I could see that and agree with it. However, you are saying Jesus who is flesh is the same as the father yet has his own personality and body. That is not the same as a role.

Quote:
If you are married you can't act like a daughter to Him, that would be out of place.

God is just like that. God is so powerful He can be three persons, yet one God. Our little brains sometimes can't grasp the consept.
If our little brains can't grasp the concept of God, the I guess there is no point in trying to understand the gospel?

Isaiah 44:18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.

What verses say that God is too complex for simple humans to understand?

Quote:
If God can create the world out of nothing, open a donkeys mouth to speak, part the red sea, I don't see why it would be a problem with Him doing anything.
I don't have a problem with God being powerful enough to do what he pleases.

Quote:
We as humans have a limited understanding of God.
I do have a problem with this... where is the verse that states we cannot understand God?

Quote:
An egg has three parts. The hard shell, the white, and the yoke, but one egg. Not three eggs, one egg.
But you are saying the egg is boiled and each part is sitting on the plate separated from one another.. that makes no sense to me.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:11 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,344,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But you said that Jesus and the holy spirit were in the burning bush...
Yet the scripture on says there is one person:
Exodus 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

So how many were present in the bush?

That's a common assertion for trinitarians.

Would you also call a schizophrenic powerful? Seems like I'm being sarcastic but I truly want to know why it seems to you that it is alright for God to have three personalities but not for a human (who is made in God's image) to have three personalities within himself (if you do believe schizophrenia is a mental problem).

True.. I am all of those (except the grandmother but that isn't too far in the future either). However, my wife personality doesn't just go off on it's own. They are all still within myself. Nor do they have their own personalities.. They are still just me. If God was just one being but had different roles I could see that and agree with it. However, you are saying Jesus who is flesh is the same as the father yet has his own personality and body. That is not the same as a role.

If our little brains can't grasp the concept of God, the I guess there is no point in trying to understand the gospel?

Isaiah 44:18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.

What verses say that God is too complex for simple humans to understand?

I don't have a problem with God being powerful enough to do what he pleases.


I do have a problem with this... where is the verse that states we cannot understand God?


But you are saying the egg is boiled and each part is sitting on the plate separated from one another.. that makes no sense to me.
Quote:
But you are saying the egg is boiled and each part is sitting on the plate separated from one another.. that makes no sense to me.
[/quote]

It makes no sense to you because you are trying to separate the egg. The egg is sitting on the plate as one egg, not three eggs.

You seem to be making this harder than it really is.

Water is water. But when you freeze it, it is still water. When you boil it, there is stream, but it is still water. Water can take on many different forms, but it is still water.

Quote:
I do have a problem with this... where is the verse that states we cannot understand God?
God says if we lack wisdom and revelation, we should ask for it. He knows that we lack wisdom and revelation, that is why He said ask for it.

Isaiah 55:8-9

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

We don't think like God, if we did understanding His nature wouldn't be hard.

You believe that God is so powerful, but you seem to have a hard time understanding that God is so powerful that He can be three within Himself.

Quote:
But you said that Jesus and the holy spirit were in the burning bush...
Yet the scripture on says there is one person:
Exodus 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
Yes, they were as one, not two separate persons. The verse says angel of the Lord, not angels. God appeared in the fire.

Jacob didn't wrestle with two separate Gods, He wrestled with God.

Quote:
). However, my wife personality doesn't just go off on it's own.
That is because you are human, you are not God. God can do what you can't.

God can separate Himself, we can't.

Quote:
If our little brains can't grasp the concept of God, the I guess there is no point in trying to understand the gospel?
NO, that shows that we are human and can't fully understand God because of Sin.

If you would be honest with yourself without the Holy Spirit we couldn't understand God at all because if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit we would never know God. If it wasn't for the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't be able to receive revelation on God.

If I were you I would ask God to give me a revelation on His nature in a way that you can understand, that is what I did. So, now it is not hard for me to understand His oneness.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden they saw God as He truely was because sin was not in the world yet. They saw The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in one form as He truely was.

We can't see what they saw because sin entered in through them.

Quote:
Would you also call a schizophrenic powerful? Seems like I'm being sarcastic but I truly want to know why it seems to you that it is alright for God to have three personalities but not for a human (who is made in God's image) to have three personalities within himself (if you do believe schizophrenia is a mental problem).
I find it quite amuzing but it seems like you are being sarcastic due to you not understanding or grasping God's nature. So, really this frustration that you have has nothing to do with me, but something going on with you.

It is alright for God to be three persons within Himself because He is God, and we are not.

If you are having a problem with that then you should take that up with Him.

You should watch the videos.

I really don't need to give you a verse, you can't say that you understand everything about God, if you did you would be lieing.

You can't say why God does what He does, you can't say why God loves us so much, you can't say why God is who He is, so you don't need to verse, all you have to do is look at the things you can't answer about God.

Go to God yourself and ask for Him to reveal His nature about Himself. The evidence is in scripture, allow the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you.

Quote:
If our little brains can't grasp the concept of God, the I guess there is no point in trying to understand the gospel?
If you know so much about God, why did He create the world, why did God give you the color hair you have, why did He pick your parents, so you see if you are honest with yourself you can't answer those questions, because you don't really know why God does everything that He does?

I see misunderstanding all the time, the scripture clearly says what it says, but people either have limited knowledge, or simply don't understand God or other factors that hinder them.

Anyway, I am ending this conversation. It is not my job to make you believe anything, that is the Holy Spirits job to reveal truth to you. You can take the rest up with Him.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-27-2009 at 11:29 PM..
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