U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-27-2009, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn View Post
It makes no sense to you because you are trying to separate the egg. The egg is sitting on the plate as one egg, not three eggs.

You seem to be making this harder than it really is.

Water is water. But when you freeze it, it is still water. When you boil it, there is stream, but it is still water. Water can take on many different forms, but it is still water.

God says if we lack wisdom and revelation, we should ask for it. He knows that we lack wisdom and revelation, that is why He said ask for it.

Isaiah 55:8-9

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

We don't think like God, if we did understanding His nature wouldn't be hard.

You believe that God is so powerful, but you seem to have a hard time understanding that God is so powerful that He can be three within Himself.



Yes, they were as one, not two separate persons. The verse says angel of the Lord, not angels. God appeared in the fire.

Jacob didn't wrestle with two separate Gods, He wrestled with God.



That is because you are human, you are not God. God can do what you can't.

God can separate Himself, we can't.

NO, that shows that we are human and can't fully understand God because of Sin.

If you would be honest with yourself without the Holy Spirit we couldn't understand God at all because if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit we would never know God. If it wasn't for the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't be able to receive revelation on God.

If I were you I would ask God to give me a revelation on His nature in a way that you can understand, that is what I did. So, now it is not hard for me to understand His oneness.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden they saw God as He truely was because sin was not in the world yet. They saw The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in one form as He truely was.

We can't see what they saw because sin entered in through them.



I find it quite amuzing but it seems like you are being sarcastic due to you not understanding or grasping God's nature.

It is alright for God to be three persons within Himself because He is God, and we are not.

If you are having a problem with that then you should take that up with Him.

You should watch the videos.
Still you show no verse that says we cannot comprehend God's triune-ness.. That right there shows that noone in the OT or NT thought it was impossible to understand God's nature, yet that is your excuse?

What you don't see is that none of this makes sense.. God being one who has a spirit is perfectly logical. Jesus being human is logical. The trinity is not logical. If you think that God is illogical then that is your perogative..

Act 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Reasoning is encouraged in the bible...

Please show me where scripture says that we cannot understand God's nature of three persons...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-27-2009, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,006 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-27-2009, 11:45 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Still you show no verse that says we cannot comprehend God's triune-ness.. That right there shows that noone in the OT or NT thought it was impossible to understand God's nature, yet that is your excuse?

What you don't see is that none of this makes sense.. God being one who has a spirit is perfectly logical. Jesus being human is logical. The trinity is not logical. If you think that God is illogical then that is your perogative..

Act 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Reasoning is encouraged in the bible...

Please show me where scripture says that we cannot understand God's nature of three persons...
You still don't get it, I see and undestand why you are very much confused.

Moses and many other walked with God and God appeared before Him, and they even said that they didn't know everything about God, so what make you so much better than them?

It makes perfect sense to me.

Quote:
Please show me where scripture says that we cannot understand God's nature of three persons...[/
The bible is clear that we don't understand everything about God, you seem to have not answered my questions.

If God is so clear explain who was talking to when He said lets make man in your image and our likeness.

If God is three separate God as you say, show me scripture where the bible is saying that God is three separate Gods. The bible is clear that God is one.

Genesis 11:7

Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

Find scripture that says that three separate Gods came down, for that matter find anywhere where God says that He is separate with two other gods next to Him?

I'm sure you will still be confused, so I will leave you to yourself. It's boring talking with someone going around in a deceived circle.


Quote:
Please show me where scripture says that we cannot understand God's nature of three persons...[/
John 14:7-11, 20



Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus is clearly saying that the Father is in Him, because they are not separate. They didn't understand it, and you don't either.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-28-2009 at 12:03 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
You still don't get it, I see and undestand why you are very much confused.

Moses and many other walked with God and God appeared before Him, and they even said that they didn't know everything about God, so what make you so much better than them?

Enoch is said in Genesis 5:24 to have walked with God
Noah is said to have walked with God in Genesis 6:9
But that is all I can find.. in context it seems they were of God not actually walking next to him... Where does Moses walk with God?

Quote:
It makes perfect sense to me.

The bible is clear that we don't understand everything about God, you seem to have not answered my questions.
I asked you where it says that we don't understand the nature of God.. even remotely that it is incomprehensible? I will concede that you are right if you can show that we are unable to comprehend that God is actually three personalities.

I must have missed your questions because I don't remember not responding to them... Ask again if you will and I will answer them.

Quote:
If God is so clear explain who was talking to when He said lets make man in your image and our likeness.
Now you having studied the original languages should know this.
This is a majesty statement when someone (a ruler or king) speaks using plural pronouns about himself. Besides the fact that noone was there to here what words, if any, he uttered since no man was alive yet!

Quote:
If God is three separate God as you say, show me scripture where the bible is saying that God is three separate Gods. The bible is clear that God is one.
God is one God.. just as the WHOLE bible says, not three. I cannot show you verses because there are NONE! It is you who say that Jesus (a separate being) is God and that the holy spirit has a personality separate from God.. thus it is you who has the burden of proof. I never claimed that God is three... HE IS ONE. That is what the bible says.

Quote:
Genesis 11:7

Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
I suppose you mean that the "us" is him talking to the other two godheads but you should know better than that considering this is a language you can read and understand!

Let us go down is נֵֽרְדָ֔ה now is that the correct translation? I don't know from looking at it but in context I can see that again no one heard these words. They were written by a people who knew the majesty of God and therefore the majestic plural pronoun is used... Yet none of the Israelites nor Jews thought of God as plural.. just one majestic God. So all the Israelites and Jews were wrong, and you know better?

Find scripture that says that three separate Gods came down, for that matter find anywhere where God says that He is separate with two other gods next to Him?

Quote:
I'm sure you will still be confused, so I will leave you to yourself. It's boring talking with someone going around in a deceived circle.
There is no verse that says there are three gods.. There is only one God.. You seem to think that you can add Jesus and the holy spirit as gods and that is ok. You'd think that if the trinity concept is so essential and yet such a mystery.. SOMEONE in the bible would have explained it! The gospel is not hard for me to understand yet it took the whole NT to explain this MYSTERY..

The facts are that God is one god. His spirit is his spirit. He is spirit. Jesus was human. These are easily gathered from scripture.

Anything beyond that is pure speculation. It is funny that most people choose to end conversations with me about this subject when I ask for a verse or verses to prove it. I think that tells alot about how you believe something that is not found in scripture!

Just show me somewhere in the bible that explains that God's nature cannot be understood by human minds... It says his ways cannot be understood, but is mysteriously silent when it comes to this triple personality you claim...

If you believe it so wholeheartedly then shouldn't you be able to find proof in the bible easily? And if not then why hold onto the belief?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 12:52 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Enoch is said in Genesis 5:24 to have walked with God
Noah is said to have walked with God in Genesis 6:9
But that is all I can find.. in context it seems they were of God not actually walking next to him... Where does Moses walk with God?

I asked you where it says that we don't understand the nature of God.. even remotely that it is incomprehensible? I will concede that you are right if you can show that we are unable to comprehend that God is actually three personalities.

I must have missed your questions because I don't remember not responding to them... Ask again if you will and I will answer them.

Now you having studied the original languages should know this.
This is a majesty statement when someone (a ruler or king) speaks using plural pronouns about himself. Besides the fact that noone was there to here what words, if any, he uttered since no man was alive yet!

God is one God.. just as the WHOLE bible says, not three. I cannot show you verses because there are NONE! It is you who say that Jesus (a separate being) is God and that the holy spirit has a personality separate from God.. thus it is you who has the burden of proof. I never claimed that God is three... HE IS ONE. That is what the bible says.

I suppose you mean that the "us" is him talking to the other two godheads but you should know better than that considering this is a language you can read and understand!

Let us go down is נֵֽרְדָ֔ה now is that the correct translation? I don't know from looking at it but in context I can see that again no one heard these words. They were written by a people who knew the majesty of God and therefore the majestic plural pronoun is used... Yet none of the Israelites nor Jews thought of God as plural.. just one majestic God. So all the Israelites and Jews were wrong, and you know better?

Find scripture that says that three separate Gods came down, for that matter find anywhere where God says that He is separate with two other gods next to Him?



There is no verse that says there are three gods.. There is only one God.. You seem to think that you can add Jesus and the holy spirit as gods and that is ok. You'd think that if the trinity concept is so essential and yet such a mystery.. SOMEONE in the bible would have explained it! The gospel is not hard for me to understand yet it took the whole NT to explain this MYSTERY..

The facts are that God is one god. His spirit is his spirit. He is spirit. Jesus was human. These are easily gathered from scripture.

Anything beyond that is pure speculation. It is funny that most people choose to end conversations with me about this subject when I ask for a verse or verses to prove it. I think that tells alot about how you believe something that is not found in scripture!

Just show me somewhere in the bible that explains that God's nature cannot be understood by human minds... It says his ways cannot be understood, but is mysteriously silent when it comes to this triple personality you claim...

If you believe it so wholeheartedly then shouldn't you be able to find proof in the bible easily? And if not then why hold onto the belief?
Quote:
But that is all I can find.. in context it seems they were of God not actually walking next to him...
The more and more you write, the more I understand why you are confused. Do you not know what it means to walk with God? When the bible says that Enoch walked with God, it means that He lived by faith in God, trusted in His word and promises, made every effort to live a holy life, and embraced God's ways while standing firm against His generations ungodliness.

Quote:
Where does Moses walk with God?
The bible not only shows that Moses walked with God, He literally sat with God on the mountain. Exodus 24:12-18 Not only that Moses and The Children of Isarel literally walked under God in the desert. So, no they didn't walk right beside God, they walked under Him for He was guiding them in the desert.

Quote:
I asked you where it says that we don't understand the nature of God.. even remotely that it is incomprehensible? I will concede that you are right if you can show that we are unable to comprehend that God is actually three personalities.
I gave you scripture you choose to not accept it... What Jesus was saying they didn't understand.

John 14:7-11, 20


Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Since you are impying that you know the nature of God, then explain this verse and provide me scripture that says that God is three separate Gods. It is clear what Jesus is saying, they asked to see the Father, He said that the Father was in Him, they are one. If they had asked to see the Holy Spirit, I'm sure He would have said the same.

Quote:
Now you having studied the original languages should know this.
This is a majesty statement when someone (a ruler or king) speaks using plural pronouns about himself. Besides the fact that noone was there to here what words, if any, he uttered since no man was alive yet!
What good would it be for me to provide the hebrew, greek, or aramaic language if you can't read it.

If you don't want to accept the words, then you shouldn't use the bible at all. You can't pick and choose what verse you want to believe. Either you believe it or not.

Quote:
I suppose you mean that the "us" is him talking to the other two godheads but you should know better than that considering this is a language you can read and understand!
I do know better, you want to know about the english translation, if you want to debate the hebrew text, then lets debate that. But I take it you don't read the langauge so what good would that be to debate it if you can't read the entire text. It is best to understand the language, not just a word.

We are talking about our english bible, so we are talking in english.

If God said let us make man, or let us, but you want to use the excuse that no one heard it.

Ok, then what about the words that was heard by Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:8

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

Now you see that Isaiah heard God say who will go for us. Now Isaiah saw the Lord, not Lords.

Isaiah 6:1

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple.

He saw the Lord, and The Lord used us.

He saw The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit as one, not three.

ישעה 6:8
וָאֶשְׁמַ֞ע אֶת־קֹ֤ול אֲדֹנָי֙ אֹמֵ֔ר אֶת־מִ֥י אֶשְׁלַ֖ח וּמִ֣י יֵֽלֶךְ־לָ֑נוּ וָאֹמַ֖ר הִנְנִ֥י שְׁלָחֵֽנִי׃

So, as you see it is in the Jewish bible. The proper word would be the Tenach ( Old Testament)
Quote:
If you believe it so wholeheartedly then shouldn't you be able to find proof in the bible easily? And if not then why hold onto the belief
I have already found it, you refuse to see it.

Explain to me if as you say there are three God, then why didn't Isaiah see three Gods? The scripture is clear, Isaiah heard a voice say who will go for us, and He saw the Lord, one Lord, speaking about the other persons in the Godhead, within Himself.

It seems that you are repeating yourself over and over, I never said that God is not one, because He is one. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in one.

Elohim said let us: The word in Hebrew means , sometimes transliterated as Aleim) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesisand occurs frequently throughout the Torah, the Judaic Holy Scroll, recognized as the Old Testament.

Elohim when spoke in Genesis and others, but used in a plural meaning.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-28-2009 at 01:49 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 04:41 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,807 times
Reputation: 241
the posts are getting long....

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-28-2009 at 04:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
The more and more you write, the more I understand why you are confused. Do you not know what it means to walk with God? When the bible says that Enoch walked with God, it means that He lived by faith in God, trusted in His word and promises, made every effort to live a holy life, and embraced God's ways while standing firm against His generations ungodliness.



The bible not only shows that Moses walked with God, He literally sat with God on the mountain. Exodus 24:12-18 Not only that Moses and The Children of Isarel literally walked under God in the desert. So, no they didn't walk right beside God, they walked under Him for He was guiding them in the desert.
But now you are not defending what you said:
"Moses and many other walked with God and God appeared before Him, and they even said that they didn't know everything about God, so what make you so much better than them?"

When you say God appeared before then do you mean he literally walked with them? Cuz that is the impression I got from the above quote.. Seems like you are getting all mixed up. I agree that "walking with God" is simply to know him... I walk with God... others walked with God .. how does that indicate that they had trouble knowing him?

Look.. I agree that we cannot fully know God's ways or why he does what he does. I agree that we cannot understand the concept of his eternal state of being.. However I think I can understand that he is ONE GOD and not three in one or three out of one..

Quote:
I gave you scripture you choose to not accept it... What Jesus was saying they didn't understand.
I think that was the purpose.. to weed out the goats that were blind, but that doesn't mean that Jesus was God or that God is three persons in one. I don't see verses that show this. Now if John 1 said "The word was God and Jesus was God.. " that would be clear but it doesn't say that. If I said God's word became paper.. would you also worship the paper?

Quote:
John 14:7-11, 20


Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
I agree that Jesus was the reflection of God and the image of God. When you see the love between a mother and child, you see the reflection of God. When you look in the mirror or look at your child you see the reflection of yourself.. the mirror and the child are not you though...

So we can't just infer that Jesus was God unless we also say that all the prophets were God because they too are the image of God, sons of God, and carried the Word of God.

Quote:
Since you are impying that you know the nature of God, then explain this verse and provide me scripture that says that God is three separate Gods. It is clear what Jesus is saying, they asked to see the Father, He said that the Father was in Him, they are one. If they had asked to see the Holy Spirit, I'm sure He would have said the same.
I will just repeat in different words what I have said before: I don't believe their are three Gods. Jesus is not God. I will say that the Holy spirit is God but does not have a separate personality.. they are the same personality in different forms. but Jesus is not God in any way shape or form.

It is you who take the three and make them one for the bible teaches no such thing and you have yet to show that Jesus even hinted that he was God. Saying you are one with God (which I am) is not professing deity. Having the indwelling of God (his holy spirit as I have) is also not admission of being God.

Quote:
What good would it be for me to provide the hebrew, greek, or aramaic language if you can't read it.

If you don't want to accept the words, then you shouldn't use the bible at all. You can't pick and choose what verse you want to believe. Either you believe it or not.
I think I am intelligent enough to use information available on the web to compare with what you are saying. Such as charts like the one's below:



Hebrew Personal Pronouns
Quote:
I do know better, you want to know about the english translation, if you want to debate the hebrew text, then lets debate that. But I take it you don't read the langauge so what good would that be to debate it if you can't read the entire text. It is best to understand the language, not just a word.

We are talking about our english bible, so we are talking in english.
So which personal pronoun is used to say "let us make" and I will compare it to what I have available to me. You can lead me to the answer and I will verify it. If I can't then that is no concern of yours.. you did what you could.

Quote:
If God said let us make man, or let us, but you want to use the excuse that no one heard it.

Ok, then what about the words that was heard by Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:8

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

Now you see that Isaiah heard God say who will go for us. Now Isaiah saw the Lord, not Lords.
You can see in this chapter Isaiah is crying out to God to save his people.. so in "whom shall I send".. "I" is God and in "who will go for us" the us is Isaiah who asks God for help with them and God who wants to help them as well...

Quote:
Isaiah 6:1

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple.

He saw the Lord, and The Lord used us.
He saw the Lord.. but he didn't SEE him, he envisioned him. If he saw him ocularly then the same word would not be used in:
Psalm 114:3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.

Obviously the sea doesn't have eyes!
Quote:
He saw The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit as one, not three.
Yet this is not true as I state above. Isaiah cries out to God to help and God wants to help... they are in agreement that there is the need for help so God says who will go for us (Isaiah and God). No one then or now would disagree with this after having read the Hebrew or the English version.
Quote:
ישעה 6:8
וָאֶשְׁמַ֞ע אֶת־קֹ֤ול אֲדֹנָי֙ אֹמֵ֔ר אֶת־מִ֥י אֶשְׁלַ֖ח וּמִ֣י יֵֽלֶךְ־לָ֑נוּ וָאֹמַ֖ר הִנְנִ֥י שְׁלָחֵֽנִי׃

So, as you see it is in the Jewish bible. The proper word would be the Tenach ( Old Testament)
Exactly.. the inflection on the words indicates that the subjects of the passage (Isaiah and God) are the us in Isaiah 6:8. This is called a relative pronoun and we see that it is Isaiah that is sent for them (Isaiah and God)

Quote:
I have already found it, you refuse to see it.

Explain to me if as you say there are three God, then why didn't Isaiah see three Gods? The scripture is clear, Isaiah heard a voice say who will go for us, and He saw the Lord, one Lord, speaking about the other persons in the Godhead, within Himself.
Again..*shakes head* I never said God is three.. I said the Holy spirit, God, and Jesus are three in YOUR view not mine.

Quote:
It seems that you are repeating yourself over and over, I never said that God is not one, because He is one. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in one.

Elohim said let us: The word in Hebrew means , sometimes transliterated as Aleim) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesisand occurs frequently throughout the Torah, the Judaic Holy Scroll, recognized as the Old Testament.

Elohim when spoke in Genesis and others, but used in a plural meaning.
I agree that the hebrew plural pronoun used in "let us make" is the plural of majesty.. and we know that because it is spoken of God by himself but is not actually heard by anyone... BUT in Isaiah there are two subjects (Isaiah and God) so we cannot fail to see that the US is about those two subjects (Isaiah and God) as is clear in the context.

It is clear that you only read what you want and that you are stuck in your ways.. That is your choice. However, you cannot deny grammatically in english or hebrew that Isaiah 6:8 usage of "us" refers to two people that are the subject of the passage. God uses "I" for himself and "us" for Isaiah (who is sent) and himself.. If you wish to say that the "us" is referring to God's supposed three persons.. you mistranslate and misunderstand the text.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 05:22 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But now you are not defending what you said:
"Moses and many other walked with God and God appeared before Him, and they even said that they didn't know everything about God, so what make you so much better than them?"

When you say God appeared before then do you mean he literally walked with them? Cuz that is the impression I got from the above quote.. Seems like you are getting all mixed up. I agree that "walking with God" is simply to know him... I walk with God... others walked with God .. how does that indicate that they had trouble knowing him?

Look.. I agree that we cannot fully know God's ways or why he does what he does. I agree that we cannot understand the concept of his eternal state of being.. However I think I can understand that he is ONE GOD and not three in one or three out of one..

I think that was the purpose.. to weed out the goats that were blind, but that doesn't mean that Jesus was God or that God is three persons in one. I don't see verses that show this. Now if John 1 said "The word was God and Jesus was God.. " that would be clear but it doesn't say that. If I said God's word became paper.. would you also worship the paper?

I agree that Jesus was the reflection of God and the image of God. When you see the love between a mother and child, you see the reflection of God. When you look in the mirror or look at your child you see the reflection of yourself.. the mirror and the child are not you though...

So we can't just infer that Jesus was God unless we also say that all the prophets were God because they too are the image of God, sons of God, and carried the Word of God.



I will just repeat in different words what I have said before: I don't believe their are three Gods. Jesus is not God. I will say that the Holy spirit is God but does not have a separate personality.. they are the same personality in different forms. but Jesus is not God in any way shape or form.

It is you who take the three and make them one for the bible teaches no such thing and you have yet to show that Jesus even hinted that he was God. Saying you are one with God (which I am) is not professing deity. Having the indwelling of God (his holy spirit as I have) is also not admission of being God.

I think I am intelligent enough to use information available on the web to compare with what you are saying. Such as charts like the one's below:



Hebrew Personal Pronouns
So which personal pronoun is used to say "let us make" and I will compare it to what I have available to me. You can lead me to the answer and I will verify it. If I can't then that is no concern of yours.. you did what you could.


You can see in this chapter Isaiah is crying out to God to save his people.. so in "whom shall I send".. "I" is God and in "who will go for us" the us is Isaiah who asks God for help with them and God who wants to help them as well...

He saw the Lord.. but he didn't SEE him, he envisioned him. If he saw him ocularly then the same word would not be used in:
Psalm 114:3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.

Obviously the sea doesn't have eyes!
Yet this is not true as I state above. Isaiah cries out to God to help and God wants to help... they are in agreement that there is the need for help so God says who will go for us (Isaiah and God). No one then or now would disagree with this after having read the Hebrew or the English version.
Exactly.. the inflection on the words indicates that the subjects of the passage (Isaiah and God) are the us in Isaiah 6:8. This is called a relative pronoun and we see that it is Isaiah that is sent for them (Isaiah and God)

Again..*shakes head* I never said God is three.. I said the Holy spirit, God, and Jesus are three in YOUR view not mine.

I agree that the hebrew plural pronoun used in "let us make" is the plural of majesty.. and we know that because it is spoken of God by himself but is not actually heard by anyone... BUT in Isaiah there are two subjects (Isaiah and God) so we cannot fail to see that the US is about those two subjects (Isaiah and God) as is clear in the context.

It is clear that you only read what you want and that you are stuck in your ways.. That is your choice. However, you cannot deny grammatically in english or hebrew that Isaiah 6:8 usage of "us" refers to two people that are the subject of the passage. God uses "I" for himself and "us" for Isaiah (who is sent) and himself.. If you wish to say that the "us" is referring to God's supposed three persons.. you mistranslate and misunderstand the text.
Quote:
But now you are not defending what you said:
"Moses and many other walked with God and God appeared before Him, and they even said that they didn't know everything about God, so what make you so much better than them?"
I already told you what it means to walk with God, you are just not comprehending what I wrote. LIke I said before I see why you are having such a hard time comprehending scripture.

Enoch walked with God. You are thinking about walking like walking a dog. Enoch walked with God and that means:

When the bible says that Enoch walked with God, it means that He lived by faith in God, trusted in His word and promises, made every effort to live a holy life, and embraced God's ways while standing firm against His generations ungodliness.

Walking with God is a spiritual sense means working perfectly with Him, not walking down the street holding His hand.

Moses and the Children of Israel literally walked with God in the desert, yes I mean literally walked under Him. God was in the cloud and they followed Him, if you can't understand that, then you are just lost.

Quote:
I agree that Jesus was the reflection of God and the image of God.
Show me scripture that says that Jesus is a reflection of God, because scripture says that Jesus is God and yes He is the Word and He is God. I don't have to say it, the scripture says it.

Quote:
So we can't just infer that Jesus was God unless we also say that all the prophets were God because they too are the image of God, sons of God, and carried the Word of God.
No, you are wrong, they were made in the image, they are not the image. The bible does not say that Jesus was made in the image of God, it says that He is God.

Quote:
Jesus is not God.
Show me a verse that says that Jesus is not God.

Quote:
I think I am intelligent enough to use information available on the web to compare with what you are saying. Such as charts like the one's below:

There is a difference in using the web to do word studies then studying the language.

Quote:
I agree that the hebrew plural pronoun used in "let us make" is the plural of majesty.. and we know that because it is spoken of God by himself but is not actually heard by anyone... BUT in Isaiah there are two subjects (Isaiah and God) so we cannot fail to see that the US is about those two subjects (Isaiah and God) as is clear in the context.
You are wrong and you answer shows for it. There are four sudjects. God would not use us for Isaiah. LOL, comprehending is not your strong point I see.

I don't feel the need to continue, you seem to have a hard time with comprehending simple things.

Quote:
Exactly.. the inflection on the words indicates that the subjects of the passage (Isaiah and God) are the us in Isaiah 6:8. This is called a relative pronoun and we see that it is Isaiah that is sent for them (Isaiah and God)
This is really sad and shows that you have lack of research or commonsense. The us has nothing to do with Isaiah, if you can't see that then you as I said before lack simple comprehension.

Quote:
It is clear that you only read what you want and that you are stuck in your ways.. That is your choice. However, you cannot deny grammatically in english or hebrew that Isaiah 6:8 usage of "us" refers to two people that are the subject of the passage. God uses "I" for himself and "us" for Isaiah (who is sent) and himself.. If you wish to say that the "us" is referring to God's supposed three persons.. you mistranslate and misunderstand the text.
Of course you can't deny it, it is clear that you are deceived in your ways. That is your choice. I didn't mistranslate it, I see it in english, hebrew and greek.

Anyway, I would rather not continue with long drawn out words with someone you have to constantly say things over and over. I say Enoch walked with God, you think Enoch walked down the road with God. Geeeze, I don't see the need to carry on. When you comprehend better, then I would continue this, until then, wake up.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 10-28-2009 at 06:02 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 07:01 PM
 
20,297 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Show me scripture that says that Jesus is a reflection of God, because scripture says that Jesus is God and yes He is the Word and He is God. I don't have to say it, the scripture says it.
Still, it's nice to hear you say it. Thank you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-28-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,810,005 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Anyway, I would rather not continue with long drawn out words with someone you have to constantly say things over and over. I say Enoch walked with God, you think Enoch walked down the road with God. Geeeze, I don't see the need to carry on. When you comprehend better, then I would continue this, until then, wake up.
Miss shawn,
I commend your efforts, but as the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink".

1 Corinthians 2:14
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."


And what happens to to those who does not accept:

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Mark 3:29
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Luke 12:10
"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top