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Old 10-29-2009, 02:48 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Dear Miss Shawn,
What do you think about Jesus ascending to His God and their [the disciple's] God in John 20:17?

If He ascended to THEIR God what does that tell you?

blessings,
Eusebius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. As the God-Man, there were times when He spoke from the standpoint of His deity, there were times when He spoke from the standpoint of His humanity, and there were times when He spoke from the standpoint of His hypostatic union.

From Deity: (John 8:58) ''Before Abraham was, I Am.'' His humanity did not exist eternally; His deity did.

From humanity: (John 19:28) ''...I thirst.'' Deity cannot thirst.

From hypostatic union: (Matthew 11:28) ''Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

And John 14:6 ''Jesus said to him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.''

From the standpoint of His humanity, Jesus referred to the Father as 'My God.' As for 'their God', He was from the standpoint of his humanity, referring to the Father as His God and their God.

As deity, Jesus Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with both God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit.

Thanks. But I think you get the B.S. award.
Now what do you do with this:

Rev 3:2 Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God."

Rev 3:12 '"The one who is conquering, him will I be making a pillar in the temple of My God, and he may be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

The above verses are from the standpoint of being after His resurrection.
Jesus has a God and that God that He has is the disciple's God. Jesus is not the disciple's God.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:46 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
See here again you don't address any of my concerns...

I asked you to prove that Jesus is God... You have proven that by reading this verse here and others but ignoring some you can come up with the possibility that Jesus may have been thought of as God... but you have not proven that he is God..

If this is such and important principal in Christianity shouldn't we study to show ourselves approved and be able to relay that to others?

Again from a non-christian perspective, you have not proven what you believe to be essential information for salvation.

But I understand that you can only draw from what knowledge you have...

Now to address the verse you posted:


All these quote other passages from the OT..

This is a quote of:
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

So obviously the "he says" in the first part of the verse is better translated as "it is said" because we know that God did not say these words but David (most likely) did.

Why would God say "O God?"

In context, David is not even talking for God, he is talking about God's throne. So it we know that Jesus is the scepter of uprightness and that God's throne lasts forever and ever. But you are saying that Jesus is God because the statement is directed to Jesus but it clearly isn't. The point is that Jesus is the scepter or rod which is also how Revelation describes him.

This doesn't address whether Jesus is God or not.
This does prove that Jesus is God, you are trying to hide what the scripture is saying. David is talking about God, the Son. LOL, I am saying that scripture is saying that Jesus is God, because it is there.

Show me scripture that says Jesus is not God.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:01 PM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Thanks. But I think you get the B.S. award.
Now what do you do with this:

Rev 3:2 Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God."

Rev 3:12 '"The one who is conquering, him will I be making a pillar in the temple of My God, and he may be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

The above verses are from the standpoint of being after His resurrection.
Jesus has a God and that God that He has is the disciple's God. Jesus is not the disciple's God.
Jesus is in hypostatic union for all eternity from the point of His first incarnation. You read the passages but you lack comprehension. Go to my thread that I posted last night concerning the indwelling of all three members of the Trinity in the body of the church-age believer. As God, Jesus Christ indwells the body of the church age believer.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:53 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus is in hypostatic union for all eternity from the point of His first incarnation. You read the passages but you lack comprehension. Go to my thread that I posted last night concerning the indwelling of all three members of the Trinity in the body of the church-age believer. As God, Jesus Christ indwells the body of the church age believer.
He is not the only one who lacks comprehension. For those who say that Jesus is not God are foolish. The scripture is clear, people choose to be ignorant.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:54 PM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
He is not the only one who lacks comprehension. For those who say that Jesus is not God are foolish. The scripture is clear, people choose to be ignorant.
I know. You would think that people would be eager to seek out the truth in order to throughly understand the word of God. But instead, people get caught up in these distortions and perversions of the truth, and have no interest whatsoever in listening to anyone who knows what they are talking about.

Well, there are many who consider themselves to be Christian, but who are going to find out the hard way, that Christ never knew them.

As it says in John 8:47, ''He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.''
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:01 PM
 
37,494 posts, read 25,224,572 times
Reputation: 5854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
If it is annoying then leave. There is nothing intelligent about listening about your interpretation of God which you have made up along the way.
I spent the last 3 decades fighting with my logical mind over scripture and science and the undeniable reality of God in my deep meditation experiences. I have intellectually dissected and scoured most of the existing interpretations of scripture and found them wanting. The explanations did NOT make sense. But in my experiences . . . God is undeniable . . . His love and acceptance is undeniable. Jesus is the ONLY possible source of such unconditional love and acceptance.

It took me the better part of those 3 decades to find the spiritual interpretations of scripture that reconciled them with my experiences. I pulled together my synthesis with the help of God during deep meditation. It would have been so much easier if conversation was possible . . . but I did find a way . . . and it all began to make sense eventually. So . . . to suggest that I "made up" anything is very far from reality. My synthesis is entirely in agreement with BOTH the underlying spiritual truth of scripture and the current knowledge of science. How about yours?
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
This does prove that Jesus is God, you are trying to hide what the scripture is saying. David is talking about God, the Son. LOL, I am saying that scripture is saying that Jesus is God, because it is there.

Show me scripture that says Jesus is not God.
Is this a circular argument?

I already stated from the textual context what the verse in Hebrews says.. It does not say that Jesus is God.

How many verses that say God is only one do I need to quote. Just because trinitarians redefine words doesn't mean the bible says Jesus is God.

Essence, personality, persons, beings...all have a definition which one must redefine in order to believe the trinity.. Now I understand why you do not understand me..
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I spent the last 3 decades fighting with my logical mind over scripture and science and the undeniable reality of God in my deep meditation experiences. I have intellectually dissected and scoured most of the existing interpretations of scripture and found them wanting. The explanations did NOT make sense. But in my experiences . . . God is undeniable . . . His love and acceptance is undeniable. Jesus is the ONLY possible source of such unconditional love and acceptance.

It took me the better part of those 3 decades to find the spiritual interpretations of scripture that reconciled them with my experiences. I pulled together my synthesis with the help of God during deep meditation. It would have been so much easier if conversation was possible . . . but I did find a way . . . and it all began to make sense eventually. So . . . to suggest that I "made up" anything is very far from reality. My synthesis is entirely in agreement with BOTH the underlying spiritual truth of scripture and the current knowledge of science. How about yours?
You fought with it, I don't see anything to fight. I simply see what the scripture says.
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:19 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,342,522 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Is this a circular argument?

I already stated from the textual context what the verse in Hebrews says.. It does not say that Jesus is God.

How many verses that say God is only one do I need to quote. Just because trinitarians redefine words doesn't mean the bible says Jesus is God.

Essence, personality, persons, beings...all have a definition which one must redefine in order to believe the trinity.. Now I understand why you do not understand me..
This is not an arguement, I believe and see what scripture says.

Show me scripture that says that Jesus is not God!!

I don't undestand you because you are not understandable.

I didn't ask you to quote anything, I asked you to give me scripture that says that Jesus is not God.
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I know. You would think that people would be eager to seek out the truth in order to throughly understand the word of God. But instead, people get caught up in these distortions and perversions of the truth, and have no interest whatsoever in listening to anyone who knows what they are talking about.

Well, there are many who consider themselves to be Christian, but who are going to find out the hard way, that Christ never knew them.

As it says in John 8:47, ''He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.''
What is funny is that I could say the same of you..

If you believe that worshipping another God is idolatry and Jesus is God then you have to redefine "another" which is not how comprehension works...

If I said, "You are a donkey".

You would think I meant donkey but if I redefine donkey to mean sweetheart then I am not insulting you.

Three gods in one God is the same as three persons in one God to me.. Yet you redefine persons to mean not separate entities...

And you say we lack comprehension because you are not speaking english as is taught in elementary school.

Then the rebuttal becomes that God is too complex to understand.

I say that if you believe Jesus is God and it turns out he is not, you will be an idolater. But if you believe Jesus is not God then you are guilty of unbelief... So shouldn't you be SURE and not just redefine words?
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