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Old 10-23-2009, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
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Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
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Katonjj...I am waiting for you to bite
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Sure I will take a stab at it...

Lets take a look at Exodus 3:12 And God said, "I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

This is the same word (hayah from strongs #1961 or eheyeh) used in 3:14 and translated as I am.. The word can also be found in Exodus 4:12,15 which is translated as I will be... It doesn't make any sense then to translate it differently in Ex. 3:14

Furthermore.. Jesus says "ego eimi" (I am) in John 8:58 which is entirely different from the I am or I will be statement that God makes. Look at John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."
Notice it is clarified by the bracketed words.. other versions simply say I am he.. He was God's son, who he clearly claimed to be.

And again Jesus uses ego eimi in John 4:26 in response to the woman who asks if he is the Messiah...Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

See also John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 13:19 "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

The same phrase is used in all these verses yet the context is clear that he is claiming to be the son of God, the prophet foretold and called Messiah. They did not believe him. They expected a warrior to lead them in battle against their oppressors yet God knew that it was sin that oppressed them. They were their own worst enemy, not the Romans.

Back to John 8:58 - Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day.. was Abraham actually seeing Christ's day? Or did he rejoice in the reassurance that God would fulfill his promise?

This is important because it is then that Jesus says that before Abraham was given the promise God provided a solution in the future in Jesus.

Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14, Jesus was actually telling them that he knew his father better than they did.

John 8:14-20 states very clearly that Jesus was saying he came from the father and was destined to die because of their unbelief.

The Jews knew what he was saying. He was saying that God had planned to have Jesus come long before Abraham.. they reply asking if Jesus is greater than Abraham.. Jesus says yes.. I am the fulfilment of the promise of Abraham. Wording it differently it reads.. I am he who was to come to fulfill the promise given to Abraham... He is the Messiah!

The Jews knew he was telling them the truth which is why they wanted to kill him. Jesus knew that he would be killed for saying that he was part of the plan to fulfill the promise given to Abraham. That he was indeed the Messiah even though he did not come to conquer the Romans.. Many false Messiah's came and led rebellions against the Romans. They came in their own name and the Jews believed them but not Jesus?

John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

Because Jesus came to set them free from themselves not to set them free from the Romans.

I hope that you will not just repeat what I have already heard from the lot of you but actually give me something concrete that may convince me otherwise...
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Katonjj...I am waiting for you to bite
Sciotamicks is obviously unable to come an reply due to real life obligations but anyone else care to challenge what I have stated?
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:51 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,775,158 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Sure I will take a stab at it...

Lets take a look at Exodus 3:12 And God said, "I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

This is the same word (hayah from strongs #1961 or eheyeh) used in 3:14 and translated as I am.. The word can also be found in Exodus 4:12,15 which is translated as I will be... It doesn't make any sense then to translate it differently in Ex. 3:14

Furthermore.. Jesus says "ego eimi" (I am) in John 8:58 which is entirely different from the I am or I will be statement that God makes. Look at John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."
Notice it is clarified by the bracketed words.. other versions simply say I am he.. He was God's son, who he clearly claimed to be.

And again Jesus uses ego eimi in John 4:26 in response to the woman who asks if he is the Messiah...Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

See also John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 13:19 "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

The same phrase is used in all these verses yet the context is clear that he is claiming to be the son of God, the prophet foretold and called Messiah. They did not believe him. They expected a warrior to lead them in battle against their oppressors yet God knew that it was sin that oppressed them. They were their own worst enemy, not the Romans.

Back to John 8:58 - Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day.. was Abraham actually seeing Christ's day? Or did he rejoice in the reassurance that God would fulfill his promise?

This is important because it is then that Jesus says that before Abraham was given the promise God provided a solution in the future in Jesus.

Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14, Jesus was actually telling them that he knew his father better than they did.

John 8:14-20 states very clearly that Jesus was saying he came from the father and was destined to die because of their unbelief.

The Jews knew what he was saying. He was saying that God had planned to have Jesus come long before Abraham.. they reply asking if Jesus is greater than Abraham.. Jesus says yes.. I am the fulfilment of the promise of Abraham. Wording it differently it reads.. I am he who was to come to fulfill the promise given to Abraham... He is the Messiah!

The Jews knew he was telling them the truth which is why they wanted to kill him. Jesus knew that he would be killed for saying that he was part of the plan to fulfill the promise given to Abraham. That he was indeed the Messiah even though he did not come to conquer the Romans.. Many false Messiah's came and led rebellions against the Romans. They came in their own name and the Jews believed them but not Jesus?

John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

Because Jesus came to set them free from themselves not to set them free from the Romans.

I hope that you will not just repeat what I have already heard from the lot of you but actually give me something concrete that may convince me otherwise...
The bible also says Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That would be before Abraham. God had a plan and that plan was in place before Abraham came onto the scene. Obviously Abraham was part of God`s plan but so was Jesus and Jesus is GREATER than Abraham.So the Jews looked at Abraham as the father of their people,a great man indeed. But Jesus is saying he is even greater than Abraham, eventhough he came into physical existence on the earth after Abraham. He was the one Abraham looked forward too. He was the one Abraham needed.
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
The bible also says Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That would be before Abraham. God had a plan and that plan was in place before Abraham came onto the scene. Obviously Abraham was part of God`s plan but so was Jesus and Jesus is GREATER than Abraham.So the Jews looked at Abraham as the father of their people,a great man indeed. But Jesus is saying he is even greater than Abraham, eventhough he came into physical existence on the earth after Abraham. He was the one Abraham looked forward too. He was the one Abraham needed.
Yes, I agree. and that was egregious enough to want to stone him. It threatened the very foundation of their (erroneous) view of God as Jesus clearly points out.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:35 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,748 times
Reputation: 241
what is the title of this topic again"

"Jesus us God"?????

us God?
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
what is the title of this topic again"

"Jesus us God"?????

us God?
Alan, I think he meant "Jesus as God" considering he asked me if I would bite.. LOL
His wife is on bed rest due to her pregnancy complications... so he is distracted and we all make typing errors.
I think you and I have covered the subject..
Especially since you have no other words regarding the matter than the ones already given over and over..
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:32 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 8,801,735 times
Reputation: 1574
Jesus Christ is God Incarnate
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
I would love to look at the site you present here but it won't work... Can you post an excerpt or another link?
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