For Those who deny the Free Will of Man (translate, Calvinist, salvation)

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by little elmer

That's thin ice to walk on - and I'm on it with you. Whether you believe that one has total free will or the opposite, it is written that He works all things after the council of His own will - that violates what most would call "free" will, but the fact that He loves us and knows all things makes me very willing to give up my "control".

It's quite obvious to me that I never had any to begin with...LOL I just go with the Jesus flow!

Originally Posted by pcamps

It actually says the word is in them, not just near them(Context Context) . It also says says faith comes by hearing the word , so the word does produce faith, if it comes by hearing the word(Context Context)

If it comes to us it obviously wasn't with you in the first place.In otherwords the word you heard produced it.

Give God the credit instead of boasting in man's ability in having any part of his own salvation. I did notice you never answered the question regards who gets credit for our faith.


Context Context Context my friend.

Now you are being quite foolish. I did not say it was just (only) near them.

I Did answer the question you just do not know how to comphrehend things. If you read any of my posts in this thread - we are the one called to have faith and nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that faith is a gift in regeneration so that one will by necessity believe. I gave a response to Eph. 2:8-9 (see post #111) and people just ignore the truth.

You competely miss what Paul is saying. The word of faith is in them and near them - Paul is it not complicated or hard to grasp or attain it is just a matter of accepting the truth of my message.

It is not the word in them that causes faith. Paul is not talking about regeneration here - MY GOSH YOUR HOPELESS.

Paul qoutes and references Duet.30:9-18 (GO READ IT) - just as God gave them Commandments to do and so God asks them to choose and to obey them so Paul wants his readers to choose and obey the gospel by believing the meassage of faith not works. This is the word of faith which we (Paul, myself, and everyone else who knows the word) preach.

In Moses time it was the commandments which were near and in them now in Pauls time it the gospel meassage which must be believed. If you believe then you will confess with your mouth. For who ever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But you cannnot call on him (inregard to the gospel) if you have not heard the gospel - DUH!

The gospel does not automatically produce faith. You choose to beileve it and obey it - that is what Paul is teaching. If you do not get that then you are self-blinded.

And this is why the feet of those who preach it (the gospel) are beautiful because it is the power of God unto salvation - not automatically - but when believed.

Verse 16, But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says who has believed our report.

Verse 17, So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

STOP TWISTING THE SCRIPTURE - YOU ARE HERBY REBUKED WITH YOUR FALLACIOUS SELF SERVING INTEPRETATIONS.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by legoman

LOL its ok Allan,

Allan?

It's "A L A N"
The Official Web Site of Alan Ladd
I was named by my mother after this actor who was the King of the screen at that time.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

You completely missed the point plus the fact that your story was a false analogy. I never said I worked in my own life to produce the good works, I did say that the Spirit was present in the believer to begin with. It is a cooperation in santification. Let me quote some remarks from a Greek Grammar on this verse plus another from the context.

Perhaps you believe my story to be a false analogy, but i believe it to be very adequate in explaining the relationship between God and the believer. Though the believer is a sentient being, our ability to believe in God and accept the truth of the gospel is just as alien to any human being due to our mortal corruption as the sentient consideration of its own true value is to a coal mine.

First, from the Grammar - '...the force of this context seems to be on what God does in the believer... In the previous verse, the apostle exhorts his audience to work out their own salvation. Lest they think they are alone in this endeavor, he hastens to remind them that the working in them has the ability [power/work] to bring about their complete santification.' Emphasis Mine. It is the power of God that gives the believer the ability to will and do the work but the will of the believer must act by yeilding.

Second, another contexual point is that in verse 12 Paul says 'Therefore, my beloved as you have always obeyed...' What God calls you to do He empowers you to do, but you must yield or obey for it to be done it is not forced or automatic.

Context is important - we just have to take off those Calvinistic glasses before reading the Word.

Its interesting you bring up the grammar argument here but then you go and completely defy the rule of Grammar below in your argument against the plain grammar of Ephesians 2:8-9 ... The context doesn't SEEM to be what God does in the believer, the context IS what God does in the believer. That is to say God is the one who works within us to will and do of his good pleasure.

Now of course we see that in our lives it appears that we are the ones who make the decisions which God works in our hearts and minds to decide. Whenever i am lead by God to do anything, in this visible world it appears that it is I that am the one doing the work. It is a matter of perspective ... In this visible physical world, it appears we the believers are the ones doing the work of our salvation in the decision we make and in the fruits we bare and in the way that we effect the world around us. And there can be no other way of expressing the physical manifestation of Gods work in us other than in saying that we must do it. However when Paul says work out your own salvation, he is not saying that weobtain salvation by our own works, and that is why he immidiately clarifies his previous statement in the next verse by saying that it is actually God working within us that is giving us the will to do his Good pleasure. That is to say that verse 13 qualifies verse 12 and not the other way around as you seem to be thinking.

Rom 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

2Ti 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity(before the ages),

1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

In Ephesians you said exactly what I thought you would say which is why I told you not to quote it - it does not mean that faith is the gift of God. The word 'this' does not refer to faith or grace it refers to the concept of a salvation by grace through faith. It is the Salvation that is by grace through faith that is the gift of God. Once again you see Calvinism in everything. See Romans Rom.6:23 'For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.'

You told me not to quote it because it is evidence against your argument. Then you say that the verse doesn't mean what it says.

Ephesians 2:1-10
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


How much clearer could it possibly be? You say that "not of yourselves" is referring generally to our salvation in an attempt to pr4ove your argument, but it is evident it is referring to our faith by the structure of the sentence ... That is what it means that Christ is the author and finisher/perfecter of our faith(Hbr 12:2). We only believe because he has ordained us and quickened us through his spirit ... In Christs resurrection we are ourselves resurrected by God from our previous spiritual death ... He has caused us to sit together in heavenly places in Christ. Its all him. Yes, it appears in this visible world that we are the ones who run, that we are the ones who work, that we are the ones who choose to believe ... But in reality, all the glory is Christs and none of it is ours. Yet you take your contrary stance to what the bible tells us and you boast of your faith and your works as if it were you that were responsible for them, and then you look down your nose at others who god has not elected to this office as members of the body of Christ as if it were their fault.

I understand the difficulty people have with this paradox. I understand why people get confused, because they are stuck in their indoctrinated traditions believing that God will eternally damn most of the people who have ever or who will ever live. So you feel that in order for God to be justified in doing that it must be the fault of them who are so damned, and it must be because of your efforst wherewith you boast that you are saved. But the fact is your salvation is by election and their judgment is also by election.

Rom 9:11-21
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



Paul couldn't be more clear than this.

"So then your telling me you are the one responsible for your faith?" No Paul is telling you that. You should pay attention to him not Calvin.

No Paul is clearly not saying what you say he is saying. You are obviously incapable of comprehending what he is cl;early saying ... You did not choose to believe, you were ordained beforehand to believe. your faith is not your own, it is a gift. Christ is the author and finisher of your faith. That is what Paul clearly said, you just try to twist it around because you believe in eternal damnation and you cant reconciled that belief with the fact that the only reason most people don't believe is because God has hardened them.

As far as Hebrews 12:2 there is a some mss differences. Nonetheless faith is not just the trust we place in Christ it is also to Doctrines we hold too See Jude 1:3 '...the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.' Since your a Calvinist you will probably interpret this as God giving the gift of faith to all the elect. See even I can exegete like a Calvinist. That was a joke - I hope that is not how you intepret it. Now I do not think Hebrews employes this sense but just so we realize words are defined by their context not in thier isolation as in a dictionary.

Your speaking gibberish here it seems in order to justify your twisting the scripture to mean something different that what it obviously is saying on the surface ... "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Back to Hebrews, the word 'our' is not in the mss. And even if it was this would not mean what you think - Jesus is the source of our faith. See below:

36.6 ἀρχηγόςb, οῦ m: a person who as originator or founder of a movement continues as the leader—‘pioneer leader, founding leader.’ τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας ‘their pioneer leader to salvation’ He 2.10. In order to indicate clearly the significance of ἀρχηγός in He 2.10, it may be important to employ a translation such as ‘who established a way of salvation and leads people to it.’ But it is also possible to understand ἀρχηγός in He 2.10 as meaning only the ‘initiator’ or ‘founder’ (see 68.2).
m masculine

Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:465

Nice, its possible it means that ... If you take what he is saying out of the context of every other letter in the bible that deals with election.

68.24 τελειωτής, οῦ m: one who makes possible the successful completion of something—‘one who completes, perfecter.’ ἀφορῶντες εἰς τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν Ἰησοῦν ‘looking to Jesus, the one who initiates and completes faith’ or ‘looking to Jesus on whom (our) faith depends from beginning to end’ He 12.2.
m masculine

Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:657

You fundies are funny ... Christ didn't save us, he made it possible that we can save ourselves. You say that is not what you are saying, but it is clear that is exactly what you are saying, and you cant even see it. You can quote your fundamentalist sources until your blue in the face and will sit right here and tell you both you and they are WRONG ... And i could quote plenty of other people who have written literature's who agree with me if I wanted to, but it would make a bit of difference to you anyway because you don't want to believe it is true. You want to believe you are responsible for your own faith and your own works and that they merit you salvation, with "Jesus is the one who makes it possible for you to save yourself" in fine print ...

Nuances matter. Furthermore, the 'finisher' part of the verse may mean glorification. Jesus does not have faith for us we are the ones who have faith. The author of Hebrews is exhorting us to endure against sin and sinners by looking to Jesus and the great cloud of witnesses. Jesus will see us through it till the end.

Again, you obviously cant understand the difference between what appears to be our saving ourselves through believing and the invisible reality of the fact that it is God who has made us believe and has saved us ... This is a spiritual paradox, and a deeper mystery of faith. It is tough meat to chew if you don't have well developed teeth.

"So you are saying God forced "Nebby" to be humble" Nope, God rendered justice upon Nebby it was the circumstance that humbled him. Humility is a matter of the heart. It is the difference between the direct and indirect activities of God. God works in mysterious and wonduful and just ways not necessarily deterministic ways. C'mon the ways of God are past finding out - your way is too simplistic when dealing with things like volition, conscience, and Body/Soul dynamics not to mention the influence of the Adversary. This might help: God --- Circumstance --- humility --- Nebby glorifies God and gives God His rightful place. See the order of operations - it is indirect to the end goal of glorifying God. It is not God ---- SLAM BAM on Nebby --- Nebby forced to glorify God. That is determinism and too simplistic. It is all right if we fail to grasp how manifold the ways of God are in dealing with humanity but it is not all right when we just reduce it to determinism. Just let it be and do not do injustice the Word.

Hope that helps - In Christ's Love.

Okay, believe however you will, whatever makes you feel better about yourself and the idea that most people are forever damned. Ignorance is bliss ... But the truth will set us free ...

By the way, i am not a Calvinist ... I have never Even studied Calvin as i believe him to have been quite the monster ...

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Now you are being quite foolish. I did not say it was just (only) near them.

I Did answer the question you just do not know how to comphrehend things. If you read any of my posts in this thread - we are the one called to have faith and nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that faith is a gift in regeneration so that one will by necessity believe. I gave a response to Eph. 2:8-9 (see post #111) and people just ignore the truth.

You competely miss what Paul is saying. The word of faith is in them and near them - Paul is it not complicated or hard to grasp or attain it is just a matter of accepting the truth of my message.

It is not the word in them that causes faith. Paul is not talking about regeneration here - MY GOSH YOUR HOPELESS.

Paul qoutes and references Duet.30:9-18 (GO READ IT) - just as God gave them Commandments to do and so God asks them to choose and to obey them so Paul wants his readers to choose and obey the gospel by believing the meassage of faith not works. This is the word of faith which we (Paul, myself, and everyone else who knows the word) preach.

In Moses time it was the commandments which were near and in them now in Pauls time it the gospel meassage which must be believed. If you believe then you will confess with your mouth. For who ever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But you cannnot call on him (inregard to the gospel) if you have not heard the gospel - DUH!

The gospel does not automatically produce faith. You choose to beileve it and obey it - that is what Paul is teaching. If you do not get that then you are self-blinded.

And this is why the feet of those who preach it (the gospel) are beautiful because it is the power of God unto salvation - not automatically - but when believed.

Verse 16, But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says who has believed our report.

Verse 17, So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

STOP TWISTING THE SCRIPTURE - YOU ARE HERBY REBUKED WITH YOUR FALLACIOUS SELF SERVING INTEPRETATIONS.

LMAO

SELF SERVING???????? WHO IS IT CLAIMING THEY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THEIR OWN SALVATION ? CERTAINLY NOT ME. Forbid it Lord that i should boast save in the death of Christ my God.
Any man who thinks he chose Jesus and then claims his obedience led him to his own salvation is seriously blind . He chose you get it right .It's the goodness of God that leads/causes us to repent ,Romans 2 verse 4 , and not your own obedience. It was God that drew you to Himself and not the other way round.
Come down from your self righteous pedestal and stop boasting in yourself.
You deny the scripture that says faith comes by hearing the word of God ? and take credit for your own faith being a means to salvation coming to yourself There is no way you can twist it to say anything but what it says, and the only reason you would do is to attribute any part of which should be attributed to the Author and finisher of our faith to yourself.

Do you not know the word is a seed and when a farmer sows His seed he expects it to produce/yield and multiply ?.How can you say the word does not produce/accomplish that which it is sent out to do ?

Who has believed our report , have you forgetten there was a time when you didn't believe, then the goodness and kindness of God caused/led you to repentence ? Or do you believe that you caused your self to repent ?. That you somehow found within yourself the ability to obey ? , that it was you who found Jesus , rather than He finding you ? Or you believe you first loved Him ,rather than Him first loving you ?
Have you not read that it's God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure that is before and during salvation regardless of whether you believe it or not.

Who is saying that you can believe without hearing ? who has said that ? .

Finally it's your interpretation of Ephesians 2 verse 8-10 is being ignored.

Ironmaw,

You are completely hypocritcal by accusing me of saying things I never said - I never said I save myself. That is you extrapolation - and a false one at that.

You are funny when you accuse 'my sources' as wrong just because you cannot handle the facts of the grammar.

Here are my Sources - which you are not capable of challenging.

'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics' Daniel B. Wallace (who by the way is reformed I believe) Pretty much the standard.

'Ephesians an Exegetical Commentary' Harold W. Hoehner, pretty much the standard as well.

Why don't you tell us why 'that' refers to faith in Eph.2:8 - and I mean exegete the passage do not just keep stating things over and over again as if the more you repeat it it becomes true. Let's stick with this passage and not shotgun a bunch of others - it will just get messy. Focus.

Yes, God does regenerate, He does make us alive, He does cause us to be born again, ect, ect. But this is in conjucntion with faith not prior to it. I never said I do those things you are just misrepresenting what I said to make your own position more powerful - that is being deceptive and hypocritcal if not down right lying.

You have the order of operations backwards - God does all those things first and then you believe (in fact you cannot not believe) and then your are justified.

The reality is that God graces us with Christ's work on the cross, that good news is presented to us, we believe, God regenerates us and accounts to us righteousness. Now I still believe the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of a sinner just as He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. But those are far different than regeneration which is having the Spirit of God indwelling a person.

So tell us why Eph.2:8 is refering to faith. Linguistic reasons please.

[legoman]

Here is a really good video on why Eph 2:8 is saying grace AND faith are both gifts from God. It gets into the grammar of the verse and why faith is a gift.


YouTube - Faith Is A Gift - Pastor Jim McClarty

Its from the Calvinist viewpoint, which I don't agree with everything they say, but I think he got this study right on Eph 2:8. Watch it if you want to understand.

[legoman]

Shiloh1,

Further evidence faith is a gift:

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God grants people their belief and gives them their faith.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by legoman

Shiloh1,

Further evidence faith is a gift:

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God grants people their belief and gives them their faith.

Yes Lego there is nothing we have that is not given us by God . He's the God that gives to all men liberally

Psalm 103

1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.

2 Praise the LORD, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits-
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion, 5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.

This is a drop in the ocean to the depth's of His giving and genorisity.

Originally Posted by legoman

Here is a really good video on why Eph 2:8 is saying grace AND faith are both gifts from God. It gets into the grammar of the verse and why faith is a gift.


YouTube - Faith Is A Gift - Pastor Jim McClarty

Its from the Calvinist viewpoint, which I don't agree with everything they say, but I think he got this study right on Eph 2:8. Watch it if you want to understand.

OK, well Here is the rest of the story not fron YOUTUBE but from an acutual scholar. Notice though that at least the video does agree with me that 'that' does not refer to grace or faith as many were saying. Thank you. But the preacher does get the last part wrong it does not mean that Paul was saying that grace and faith are both gifts.

As I said in a previous post it is the "CONCEPT" of a "SALVATION" that is by grace through faith that is a gift. It is the resultant of grace and faith that is a gift. Hence my previous quote in Rom.6 - the gift of GOd is eternal life. Paul is not hinting at whether faith is of man or of God - that is not the focus. The preacher wants all of it as God - because he is a -as you say - Calvinist.

Now for the facts - This is from the Grammar Text Book I quoted earlier. Please read carefully.

Eph. 2:8: th gar xariti este seswsmenoi dia pistewj kai touto ouk ec umwn, qeou to dwron
“for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”

This is the most debated text in terms of the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, touto. The standard interpretations include: (1) “grace” as antecedent, (2) “faith as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto having an adverbial force with no antecedent (“and especially”).

The first and second options suffer from the fact that touto is neuter while xariti and pistewj are feminine. Some have argued that the gender shift causes no problem because (a) there are other examples in Greek literature in which a neuter demonstrative refers back to a noun of a different gender,[ii]and (b) the touto has been attracted to the gender of dwron, the predicate nominative. These two arguments need to be examined together.

While it is true that on rare occasions there is a gender shift between antecedent and pronoun, the pronoun is almost always caught between two nouns of different gender. One is the antecedent; the other is the predicate nom. In Acts 8:10, for example (outojestin h dunamij tou qeou), the pronoun is masculine because its antecedent is masculine, even though the predicate nom. is feminine. In Matt 13:38 inverse attraction takes place (the pronominal subject is attracted to the gender of the predicate nom.): to de kalon sperma, outoi eisin oi uioi thj basileiaj (“the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom”).[iii]The construction in Eph 2:8, however, is not parallel because dwron is not the predicate nom. of touto, but of the implied “it” in the following clause. On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either “faith” or “grace” is the antecedent of touto.

More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.[iv] A fourth view is that kaitouto is adverbial, though this view has surprisingly made little impact on the exegetical literature.[v] If adverbial, kai touto is intensive, meaning “and at that, and especially,” without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than on any noun. In 3 John 5 we see this usage: pistov poieij o eav ergash eij touj adelfouj kai touto cenouj[vi](“you do a faithful [deed] whenever you render service for the brothers, and especially [when you do it] for strangers”). If this is the force in Eph 2:8, the text means “for by grace you are saved through faith, and [you are saved] especially not by your own doing; it is the gift of God.”

The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone. Nevertheless, syntactical considerations do tend toward one of the latter two views.[vii]

Another comment can be found in Wallace regarding Eph. 2:8 on pgs. 167-168 under the heading “Instrumental Dative Uses” and “Dative of Cause (because of)”; he says “This use of the dative is similar to but not the same as the dative of means. (At times, however, it is impossible to distinguish the two.)[viii] The dative of means indicates the how; the dative of cause indicates the why; the dative of means indicates the method; the dative of cause indicates the basis. Also, it is not always best to translate the dative of cause as “because of.” This is due to the fact that in English, “because of” may express cause or motive. The two ideas are similar, but not identical. Thus occasionally it is best to translate the dative of cause with “by” or “on the basis of.” In Eph 2:8, for example (th gar xariti este seswsmenoi dia pistewj), th xariti is the cause of our salvation (and dia pistewj expresses the means). However, it would be better to translate it as “by grace” or “on the basis of grace” instead of “because of grace,”since this last phrase might be construed as indicating only God’s motive, but not the basis of our salvation.

The reason this verse is debated is not because the grammar is so difficult but because of the theological significance that this verse has depending on the interpretation. There are other verses with similar constructions that are not debated this heavily.

[ii]In particular, note R. H. Countess, “Thank God for the Genitive!” JETS 12 (1969) 117-22. He lists three examples from Attic Greek, arguing that such a phenomenon occurs frequently in Greek literature (120). His approach has weaknesses, however, for not only does he cite no NT examples, but two of his classical illustrations are better seen as referring to a concept rather than a noun. Further, the usage is not at all frequent and in every instance requires explanation.

[iii] Cf. also Matt 7:12; Luke 2:12; 8:11; John 1:19; Rom 11:27; Gal 4:24.

[iv][On an exegetical level, I am inclined to agree with Lincoln that “in Paul’s thinking faith can never be viewed as a meritorious work because in connection with justification he always contrast faith and works of the law (cf. Gal 2:16; 3:2-5, 9, 10; Rom 3:27-28)” (A.T. Lincoln, Ephesians [WBC] 111). If faith is not meritorious, but is instead the reception of the gift of salvation, then it is not a gift per se. Such a view does not preclude the notion that for faith to save, the Spirit of God must initiate the conversion process.

[v] But cf. BDF, 151 (§290.5), BAGD, s.v. outos 1.b.g. Both authorities assume this force for kai touto in Eph 2:8 without discussion.

[i][i][vi]Touto is replaced by eij touj in P Byz and by touj in 81 et pauci. The pronoun is solidly established in early and widespread witnesses, however (e.g., a A B C Y 048 33 vid323 1241 vid 1739).

[vii] For what it is worth, an examination of all 22 instances of kai touto in the NT (not counting Eph 2:8) yield the following results: 14 or 15 had a conceptual referent (e.g., Luke 3:20; 5:6; John 11:28; 18:38; 20:20; Acts 7:60; 1Cor 7:37; Phil 1:9; Heb 6:3 [Phil 1:28 was probable]); four were adverbial (Rom 13:11; 1 Cor 6:6; 8; 3 John 5 [Heb 11:12 is listed by BAGD as adverbial, but the plural is used (kai tauta), following more closely the Attic idiom]); three involved the same gender (Luke 2:12; 13:8; 1 John 4:3); no clear examples involved different genders (though Phil 1:28 was possible).

[viii] This is due to the fact that the ultimate cause may also, at times, be the accomplishing means of an action.