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I can see everyone's comments as truth, hence my confusion . . . I will ponder over these and ask God for guidance . . .
More and more I come here and read everyone's post with an open mind, I can see where everyone is coming from . . . and I can see where the bible has scripture to back up both sides of this "free will" debate . . . and many other debates . . . . maybe God is not an author of confusion . . . but I know that I am confused regarding certain doctrines . . . sigh . . .
I can see everyone's comments as truth, hence my confusion . . . I will ponder over these and ask God for guidance . . .
More and more I come here and read everyone's post with an open mind, I can see where everyone is coming from . . . and I can see where the bible has scripture to back up both sides of this "free will" debate . . . and many other debates . . . . maybe God is not an author of confusion . . . but I know that I am confused regarding certain doctrines . . . sigh . . .
The confusion comes when man tries to set aside Gods Sovereignty and claims his sovereignty over Gods. God is not a God of confusion...He is Sovereign in ALL things...not just some things. This is why there is no condemnation...because God directs it ALL whether good or bad...once you understand this you can learn from any mistakes you make and move on to higher things. There is always a lesson to be learned from the things we endure and when we truly trust God...we know that He will work it all out in the end.
Lets get down to the scriptures. These should make it clear, yet Satan's deception is so strong that many will still insist that they have free will.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but theLORD determines his steps.
Prov 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever hepleases.
Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Job 14:5 Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Proverbs 20:24 is particularly revealing: How can we understand our own way when we think we are in control of our own steps? Yet many insist they do control their own steps; they are confused.
So here we see:
- man makes plans in his heart, but God directs the man's steps (which obviously can change the man's plans)
- God directs Kings and leaders as He sees fit. It is a simple matter for God.
- Jeremiah knew that a man's life was not his own, because all man's steps are directed by God!
- Job knew that all of man's days were ordained, including the day when a man dies
- Psalm 139 confirms that God decrees when we are born and when we die. By implication, this also means God ordains how we die, and therefore also all events leading up to our death.
- Romans 9 gives us the big picture. We are clay, God is the potter. The clay can do NOTHING without the potter.
How does man's "free will" fit in here?It doesn't.
Just in case you weren't sure, read these two scriptures and we see that God has declared EVERYTHING (from beginning to end) that will happen, and He purposes it and brings it to pass:
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
See that? It says God works all things after man's free will! OH WAIT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT AT ALL. God works all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.
There are many more scriptural examples of man not having a free will:
- Pharaoh was raised up and hardened by God for God's purpose
- Joseph and His 12 brothers was all meant for good by God
- Peter says He will never deny Christ, yet He denies Him 3 times within 24 hours - what happened to Peter's "free will"
- did Judas have free will to NOT betray Christ? Judas was doomed for destruction before He even knew it.
After this post, some will still insist we must have a "free" will. That is the power of the deception of free will. It is man's pride to say he has free will.
Some will protest saying "we are not robots" or "man must believe on his own!". I never said we are robots, and man will believe, but not without outside influence. Your argument is not with me, it is with the plain reading of scripture.
Next we should look at the logical argument against free will.
Divine guidance is available to the believer.
Prov 3:5-6 Trust (you must make the decision to trust) in the Lord with all your heart;and lean not unto your own understanding ( a command that you might or might not obey). In all your ways acknowedge him (you might acknowedge him, or you might not.), and he shall direct your path. (If you seek divine guidance then God will guide you.)
Jeremiah 29:13 ''And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.'' You must make the decision to seek God. He has revealed Himself, but He does not force Himself on you. You must want to come to Him. He has made it possible to come to Him through Christ, but it is up to you to do so.
Again, the sovereignty of God co-exist's with the free will of man. In the matter of salvation, God has done the work, and has extended His offer, but it is up to each individual to either accept or reject the offer.
Regarding man's volition, God's decrees simply guarantee that whatever a person decides to do, and the consequences of those decisions, will certainly happen.
If you refuse to understand that by the will of God, divine sovereignty co-exists with man's free will, then you will just keep grasping for scripture, and without understanding it, distort its meaning to make it mean what you want it to mean, instead of what it actually means.
Go back and read the first post and try to understand it.
If you choose to continue in error, it is your choice and at your own cost.
EXACTLY....because they are trying to "choose" to follow God. If God has not given you the grace and faith you need to follow him....no amount of "choosing" or trying to follow God will make it so. God has to regenerate us or give us a new heart before we can respond in faith to the Gospel...His word is pretty clear about that.
P.S.....it's not that they refuse to grow in Christ....it's because they can't grow in Christ, they haven't been given that ability by God.
Hmmmm... actually I agree with what you said here. In reality, when it comes to sin no one has free will until they have been called by God and their heart has been opened.
At that point they are given the power and grace to repent and become a child of God.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If they will repent of sin they receive the Holy Spirit of God.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Many Christians have "received" (believe in) Jesus, been given the power to become children of God but have never truly repented of sin.
I can see everyone's comments as truth, hence my confusion . . . I will ponder over these and ask God for guidance . . .
More and more I come here and read everyone's post with an open mind, I can see where everyone is coming from . . . and I can see where the bible has scripture to back up both sides of this "free will" debate . . . and many other debates . . . . maybe God is not an author of confusion . . . but I know that I am confused regarding certain doctrines . . . sigh . . .
Try the commentaries in those websites I provided for any particular verse and see what they have to say. Do not listen to the universalists, the preterists, the soul sleepers, those who allegorize the entire Bible, those who deny that the Sovereignty of God co-exists with the free will of man, by God's own decision. They are all doctrines of demons and will lead you astray. I know you don't believe much of what I say, so try the commentaries and see what you can learn from them. They are learned men (Not Pharisees) who know what they are talking about. Some of these commentaries are from long ago, long before the post-Christian era we are in now. And they are sound in their doctrine, and in their understanding of the Scriptures.
Try the commentaries in those websites I provided for any particular verse and see what they have to say. Do not listen to the universalists, the preterists, the soul sleepers, those who allegorize the entire Bible. They are all doctrines of demons and will lead you astray. I know you don't believe much of what I say, so try the commentaries and see what you can learn from them.
Mikey....just because others can clearly see the spiritual aspects of the scriptures that you are yet blinded to doesn't mean we allegorize the bible. It just means that we have a clearer understanding of the spiritual message Jesus imparted to the world while you are still clinging to the physical message.
Prov 3:5-6 Trust (you must make the decision to trust) in the Lord with all your heart;and lean not unto your own understanding ( a command that you might or might not obey). In all your ways acknowedge him (you might acknowedge him, or you might not.), and he shall direct your path. (If you seek divine guidance then God will guide you.)
Jeremiah 29:13 ''And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.'' You must make the decision to seek God. He has revealed Himself, but He does not force Himself on you. You must want to come to Him. He has made it possible to come to Him through Christ, but it is up to you to do so.
Again, the sovereignty of God co-exist's with the free will of man. In the matter of salvation, God has done the work, and has extended His offer, but it is up to each individual to either accept or reject the offer.
Regarding man's volition, God's decrees simply guarantee that whatever a person decides to do, and the consequences of those decisions, will certainly happen.
If you refuse to understand that by the will of God, divine sovereignty co-exists with man's free will, then you will just keep grasping for scripture, and without understanding it, distort its meaning to make it mean what you want it to mean, instead of what it actually means.
Go back and read the first post and try to understand it.
If you choose to continue in error, it is your choice and at your own cost.
This is the classic "free will" response. God is sovereign yet man has free will to reject God's sovereign will. Huh? I guess God is not really so sovereign after all.
This is the classic "free will" response. God is sovereign yet man has free will to reject God's sovereign will. Huh? I guess God is not really so sovereign after all.
Is man's will equal to God's sovereign will?
You and I both know that he is....but the "freewill" illusionists will never let that go and admit it.
I can see everyone's comments as truth, hence my confusion . . . I will ponder over these and ask God for guidance . . .
More and more I come here and read everyone's post with an open mind, I can see where everyone is coming from . . . and I can see where the bible has scripture to back up both sides of this "free will" debate . . . and many other debates . . . . maybe God is not an author of confusion . . . but I know that I am confused regarding certain doctrines . . . sigh . . .
Don't lose hope lifesigns. Just be prepared to abandon your previous beliefs and start from scratch, restarting with what scripture actually says. The confusion happens when we let the doctrines of man dictate instead of seeing what scripture really says.
And pray for understanding, that's what I did and I got the shock of my life.
I can see everyone's comments as truth, hence my confusion . . . I will ponder over these and ask God for guidance . . .
More and more I come here and read everyone's post with an open mind, I can see where everyone is coming from . . . and I can see where the bible has scripture to back up both sides of this "free will" debate . . . and many other debates . . . . maybe God is not an author of confusion . . . but I know that I am confused regarding certain doctrines . . . sigh . . .
Lifesigns......there is nothing to abandon. Don't fall into that trap others in here have fallen into which is "reason" asking God to make sense of things He obviously sought out to deliberately shield us for His own purpose and His glory. If this is God's will why would someone pray not according to His will? and if He didn't grant this in scripture why would He grant others today?Just leave it to God.
These paradoxes prove 3 things
1) This is how we know the bible was written by God and not man (like many in here like to point out) because if it was written by men these "contradictions" paradoxes would have been rewritten or fixed to make sense to us
2) If we could fully understand all the doctrines easily including the ones we teach our little ones in Sunday school then God wouldn't be God. If God is who He says He is and His ways are higher then we would expect a higher, more complex reasoning in scripture, that even the best of us can not fully comprehend
3) I believe God made it this way so that we keep coming back to the bible, if we got everything what would be the use of coming back?
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-26-2009 at 02:05 PM..
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