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Yeah, you are to believe that. That's why it says we speak with the tongues of angels and every good and perfect gift comes from ABOVE. Jesus came to reverse the curses and that includes the one where the languages are confused, by making them all one in the Spirit via the origin of them. Not brain surgery here, just common sense combined with scripture. It's simple, people that have never experienced it combined with meaningless opinions, make it look hard.
Once again, same Spirit, diversities thereof. Difference between the work of the Holy Spirit and the works of the Holy Ghost. Peace
While there are different gifts, none are to provide pride in a Christian. And no "gift" means anything or witnesses to the Son of God, without love for others being the central and foremost element which lifts that gift beyond the mundane.
everyone on earth spoke the same language, until the tower of babel.
be careful throwing that brick and mortar around.
exactly. Diversified languages were a curse. The spirit reverses the curse by giving us a heavenly language. He came to reverse all the curses. Peace
Diversified languages were necessary to prevent all of the people from congregating in one place. It was not a curse at all. It resulted in the greatest blessing on mankind up to that point in history. It prevented the consolidation of evil that would have set mankind back into the same condition that existed before the flood.
In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul's reference to angels is a form of hyperbole (an exaggeration for emphasis’ sake) that is designed to accentuate his argument. It is not to be taken literally. Paul is not saying that some believers speak an “angelic” (ecstatic) language. He is merely saying that even if a person could communicate on the level of angels, if he didn't show love by speaking understandably, he'd be nothing but a distracting noise. Paul’s argument does not suggest any unintelligible utterances; it suggests just the opposite. He wanted language to be understandable.
While I agree with everything else you say in your well-written post I just wanted to highlight the above portion. I simply cannot understand how any intelligent, thinking person would not arrive at the very same explanation you give above which, as you say and "I" have said a number of times, is clearly hyperbole as used by Paul.
How does one refuse to see this?
But then, there are many these days that are so caught up in this fake phenomenon that they would simply close their ears to the truth. These folks believe themselves to be on some Holy Spirit-sanctioned roll and, in truth, really believe themselves to be superior to the 'non-tongue-speakers'. They're on some (fake) spiritual ego-trip. The very word - 'tongues' - has taken on something rather mystical and 'unworldly'. It's a real come-down to these folks that the word simply means 'language' ...and, a known language at that! These folks are too conceited and self-important to ever allow themselves to face the truth and risk looking foolish. As Jack Nicholson sharply retorted in A Few Good Men ...they can't handle the truth!
While I agree with everything else you say in your well-written post I just wanted to highlight the above portion. I simply cannot understand how any intelligent, thinking person would not arrive at the very same explanation you give above which, as you say and "I" have said a number of times, is clearly hyperbole as used by Paul.
How does one refuse to see this?
But then, there are many these days that are so caught up in this fake phenomenon that they would simply close their ears to the truth. These folks believe themselves to be on some Holy Spirit-sanctioned roll and, in truth, really believe themselves to be superior to the 'non-tongue-speakers'. They're on some (fake) spiritual ego-trip. The very word - 'tongues' - has taken on something rather mystical and 'unworldly'. It's a real come-down to these folks that the word simply means 'language' ...and, a known language at that! These folks are too conceited and self-important to ever allow themselves to face the truth and risk looking foolish. As Jack Nicholson sharply retorted in A Few Good Men ...they can't handle the truth!
Thank you, for your well written response, and for the additional insight.
I assume you are intentionally trying to flood one post so as to make it difficult to answer, so I will cut it down. Beginning with your first error....
I'm not adding to the words, but you are taking away from them by removing the clear understanding of that passage. John clearly says that he needs to be baptized by Jesus. Jesus does not tell him he's wrong, but He instead tells him that he is to baptize Him in water, because it is necessary to fulfill ALL righteousness. To all but the denominationally brainwashed, that means that there are two baptisms; one with water, one with fire. Sound familiar at all? Note the TWO baptisms stated below. As I have said before, one is for repentance from DEAD works (ie. the fleshly works) and one is FOR the works of the Spirit to begin in a believer (ie. the Holy Ghost DOES the works).
Jesus did not baptize John by water even after that moment. Jesus had not baptized anyone by water; only His disciples did when His ministry began.
John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
If what you say is true, then Jesus would have baptized John by water too afterwards, but He did not. So taking that conversation to mean both is needed when John 4:1-2 has testified that Jesus did not show that necessity in doing any water baptism, but leaving it to His disciples to do; shows a casualness towards water baptism as if it is not really that necessary. Paul confirms this.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
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And NO, that is not what it means pertaining to speaking mysteries to G-d. It means that only G-d (since it originates from the Son) can understand what is being said, without an interpreter. He's not saying don't do it, he's saying that if you don't have the gift of interpretation it's not edifying to the body because only G-d understands it. That should be obvious.
What is obvious to me is that from verse 1, Paul is exhorting believers to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts and began emphasizing it by comparing it against the gift of tongues because tongues is not nor will it ever be a stand alone gift to be manifested by the Holy Spirit in the assembly. Paul did not break away to explain tongues as if it could be used in a different way when that whole chapter is about seeking the gift of prophesy over all other spiritual gift.
But somehow or another, you make it as if Paul is defending tongues to be used without interpretation and he did not say that at all.
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As for prophesying, G-d has an order, and true prophesying on a personal level is always preceded by word of knowledge, then word of wisdom, and finally then, to prophesy. It's listed that way for a reason. And NONE of those gifts operate without the baptism in the Holy Ghost which activates them in the believer. Every good and perfect gift COMES FROM ABOVE.
1 Corinthians 12:13 testified to ALL having one drink of the One Spirit and that was in relation to the body and spiritual gifts and thus that body does not need another drink of that One Spirit to get those gifts.
And no one that sought to receive the Holy Spirit again did so in seeking any other spiritual gift, but tongues and yet Paul as led by the Holy Spirit was exhorting believers to seek prophesy over tongues.
AND when it comes to seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again after getting tongues that way, it was never after another spiritual gift but after other sensational signs in the flesh like falling down, flopping all over the floor, uncontrollable laughter, acting drunk, rendered mute for a short time, rendered immobile for a short time, and any other signs of chaos and confusion.
That, brother, is an evil tree bearing evil fruits, because they all sought and prayed to the Hol Spirit for those things to happen.
And John 14:13-14 testifies that only the Son answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...................
Now people can pray to the Holy Spirit and get answers to prayers because He answers by falling on them and doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I am telling you that is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when we believe in Jesus Christ. When we have received the Spirit by "faith" in Jesus Christ, we have received salvation. That is the gospel. Faith is not the evidence of things seen.
John 3rd chapter has Nicodemus wondering how and when one is born again spiritually. Jesus explained that it is like the wind, one cannot know where it comes from or where it goes. That means water baptism is out because then everybody would know when one is born again then. So Nicodemus asked again and Jesus explained how it happens, when one believes in Him.
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Consider these....beginning with....
Matt. 3:11 I indeed BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER (1) unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND [WITH] FIRE:
Did you notice there were TWO baptisms mentioned?
First you argue for water baptism and now you are arguing for something that is the opposite of water as if that is the FIRE reference, and so it is not. I read that the same as I read that Jesus is LORD & SAVIOR. What Jesus is doing is both at the same time... Holy Ghost & Fire; hence one baptism of the Holy Ghost. You cannot say it is water when Jesus had never baptized any one with water.
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Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, AND renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Note the clear reference to TWO baptisms again.
Nope. You cannot be a new creature in Christ without having been saved by Him; and you cannot received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost until you believe in Him. There is no two baptism of the Holy Ghost.
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Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: FOR IT IS NOT YE THAT SPEAK, BUT THE HOLY GHOST.
Notice who it is that is speaking above?
Of course the Holy Spirit is speaking, but that is still in the same respect of other scripture because let's face it, His disciples were speaking too, including Judas Iscariot, who did not believe in Him. So were His disciples really speaking in that moment? No, because the words were from the Holy Spirit in them. Wad the words originally from the Holy Spirit in them? No, because those words were from the Father.
Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
So whenever you read that the Spirit speaketh, that is under the understanding that the Spirit is speaking what He hears. That means the Holy Spirit has no words of His own to speak from Himself.
That also means the Holy Spirit will never use God's gift of tongues as a prayer language.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Otherwise, whenever we read about His disciples in Acts where it does not say that the Holy Spirit is speaking through them when they speak to the multitude, dare we to say that it was the disciples speaking and not the Holy Spirit? No. The disciples spoke by the Holy Spirit just as the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears.
So there is no twisting it around just so you can say the Holy Spirit can speak for Himself when you would be running against scripture that plainly says otherwise; hence John 16:13
That is how by the grace of God I am rightly dividing the word of truth to defend the faith that there is only one baptism of the Holy Ghost and it happens at our salvation when we first believed in Him.
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus..
Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.2 For by it the elders obtained a good report....
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
No sign of tongues required.
To preach another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues is to preach another gospel.
While there are different gifts, none are to provide pride in a Christian. And no "gift" means anything or witnesses to the Son of God, without love for others being the central and foremost element which lifts that gift beyond the mundane.
And when did I say otherwise? What you fail to realize is that the gifts operate through love. Peace
Jesus did not baptize John by water even after that moment. Jesus had not baptized anyone by water; only His disciples did when His ministry began.
John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
If what you say is true, then Jesus would have baptized John by water too afterwards, but He did not. So taking that conversation to mean both is needed when John 4:1-2 has testified that Jesus did not show that necessity in doing any water baptism, but leaving it to His disciples to do; shows a casualness towards water baptism as if it is not really that necessary. Paul confirms this.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Another long post? No problem. Paul is NOT saying here that water baptism is unnecessary, but rather pointing out the flesh's tendency to exalt the action and the person doing it beyond what is acceptable. He was, making a point. Water baptism in it's spiritual counterpart is about the repentance from dead works of the flesh, and the washing of the Word going on with the believer. The act itself is to symbolize and confess before men, what has happened and is happening in the believer, in the unseen realm of spirit.
What is obvious to me is that from verse 1, Paul is exhorting believers to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts and began emphasizing it by comparing it against the gift of tongues because tongues is not nor will it ever be a stand alone gift to be manifested by the Holy Spirit in the assembly. Paul did not break away to explain tongues as if it could be used in a different way when that whole chapter is about seeking the gift of prophesy over all other spiritual gift.
But somehow or another, you make it as if Paul is defending tongues to be used without interpretation and he did not say that at all.
Again, you are confusing the gift of tongues that requires an interpreter, with the prayer language of tongues, because you refuse to take what Paul said elsewhere pertaining to it, that I already listed, such as him forbidding not to speak in tongues, building up our most holy faith by PRAYING IN THE HOLY GHOST, and him thanking G-d that he spoke in them more than all the rest. You take one scripture and try to ignore all the rest that bring a balanced understanding when used together. Not surprising since your doctrine is in error. This is HOW error happens in the first place, not including the whole for consideration. This is what marks it as a denominational error you are spouting, because a cult always emphasizes it's error, and a cult is any doctrinal stand that refuses the whole in favor of a piece. Because the second it veered off into the flesh, it became a work of the flesh = a cult.
1 Corinthians 12:13 testified to ALL having one drink of the One Spirit and that was in relation to the body and spiritual gifts and thus that body does not need another drink of that One Spirit to get those gifts.
And again, one Spirit, but diversities thereof. John 7 refers to them receiving the Holy Spirit because the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. If salvation is dependent upon the Spirit and they therefore were saved, what then did they need to wait for? He is explicit in that He said it was POWER. Thus the scripture having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof, comes into play. Note also that they didn't prophesy or speak in tongues in Acts in either chapter (referring to chapter 2 and where the 12 DISCIPLES that believed already) until AFTER they received the HOLY GHOST. Not the Holy Spirit infilling of initial salvation, but the outward baptism of the fire coming upon their heads.
And no one that sought to receive the Holy Spirit again did so in seeking any other spiritual gift, but tongues and yet Paul as led by the Holy Spirit was exhorting believers to seek prophesy over tongues.
AND when it comes to seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again after getting tongues that way, it was never after another spiritual gift but after other sensational signs in the flesh like falling down, flopping all over the floor, uncontrollable laughter, acting drunk, rendered mute for a short time, rendered immobile for a short time, and any other signs of chaos and confusion.
And so YOU SAY, but the Word and Jesus says differently, which I just pointed out above.
That, brother, is an evil tree bearing evil fruits, because they all sought and prayed to the Hol Spirit for those things to happen.
And you are blaspheming the Holy Ghost here.
And John 14:13-14 testifies that only the Son answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...................
Now people can pray to the Holy Spirit and get answers to prayers because He answers by falling on them and doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I am telling you that is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes when we believe in Jesus Christ. When we have received the Spirit by "faith" in Jesus Christ, we have received salvation. That is the gospel. Faith is not the evidence of things seen.
Who is praying TO the Spirit? It is the Holy Ghost praying through us, the same Holy Ghost that Acts 2 says that Jesus shed forth that which you SEE AND HEAR. As for faith, let's talk about the evidence. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Put another way, what you had the faith to believe for, is what appears as evidence that you believed. It is the spiritual manifesting in the natural realm. No manifestation into the natural, faith is not completed. This is why, it says PRAYING IN THE HOLY GHOST is how we build up our MOST HOLY FAITH. Because as it also says, we know not what we should pray for, but the Holy Ghost DOES, and when He prays He gets results unlike us when we pray amiss not knowing the will of our Father intimately as He does. If you can do it all yourself, then what do you need an intercessor for?
John 3rd chapter has Nicodemus wondering how and when one is born again spiritually. Jesus explained that it is like the wind, one cannot know where it comes from or where it goes. That means water baptism is out because then everybody would know when one is born again then. So Nicodemus asked again and Jesus explained how it happens, when one believes in Him.
First you argue for water baptism and now you are arguing for something that is the opposite of water as if that is the FIRE reference, and so it is not. I read that the same as I read that Jesus is LORD & SAVIOR. What Jesus is doing is both at the same time... Holy Ghost & Fire; hence one baptism of the Holy Ghost. You cannot say it is water when Jesus had never baptized any one with water.
And again, I answered this before above. It takes BOTH, but one is symbolic of the inworking of the Spirit in the initial work of the Spirit in the believer. You keep harping on the same things, but I notice you are not really replying to any of the scriptures I listed. That's because you can't deny them, all you can do is keep on with your error in attempting to explain according to what you have been taught of men.
Nope. You cannot be a new creature in Christ without having been saved by Him; and you cannot received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost until you believe in Him. There is no two baptism of the Holy Ghost.
See above paragraphs. Your theory is in error, plain and simple.
Of course the Holy Spirit is speaking, but that is still in the same respect of other scripture because let's face it, His disciples were speaking too, including Judas Iscariot, who did not believe in Him. So were His disciples really speaking in that moment? No, because the words were from the Holy Spirit in them. Wad the words originally from the Holy Spirit in them? No, because those words were from the Father.
Confusion.
Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
So whenever you read that the Spirit speaketh, that is under the understanding that the Spirit is speaking what He hears. That means the Holy Spirit has no words of His own to speak from Himself.
That also means the Holy Spirit will never use God's gift of tongues as a prayer language.
Really? Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, PRAYING IN THE HOLY GHOST,
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Otherwise, whenever we read about His disciples in Acts where it does not say that the Holy Spirit is speaking through them when they speak to the multitude, dare we to say that it was the disciples speaking and not the Holy Spirit? No. The disciples spoke by the Holy Spirit just as the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears.
So there is no twisting it around just so you can say the Holy Spirit can speak for Himself when you would be running against scripture that plainly says otherwise; hence John 16:13
What you are trying to say is that because He does not speak of His own things, then He is not speaking at all, therefore that negates tongues. Again, you err. You are twisting what you have been taught of men to warp the truth.
That is how by the grace of God I am rightly dividing the word of truth to defend the faith that there is only one baptism of the Holy Ghost and it happens at our salvation when we first believed in Him.
No, you are not. You are defending your denomination's error. They that believed were already saved. They were disciples, and by your measure then they already had the Holy Ghost, so I guess Jesus was lying to them when He told them to WAIT in Jerusalem until they be endued with POWER FROM ON HIGH, and then the text goes on to say that then they were all baptized in the Holy Ghost. You are beating a dead horse, because their doctrine cannot stand up to the truth contained in the Word.
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus..
Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.2 For by it the elders obtained a good report....
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
No sign of tongues required.
Is that a fact? Did you notice it said AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED (1), ye were SEALED (2: same as being baptized) with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (means a down payment or portion) of our inheritance...
Hmm.....now where are we told what that promise is?
Luke 24:49, I send the PROMISE of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4 And being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the PROMISE of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:39 For the PROMISE is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
To preach another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues is to preach another gospel.
No, to preach what you are preaching is to preach a powerless gospel and is robbing people of the earnest of their inheritance. It is also staying in the outer court/30 fold realm as Judas, betraying Him for 30 pieces of silver (silver speaks of redemption) ONLY.
While I agree with everything else you say in your well-written post I just wanted to highlight the above portion. I simply cannot understand how any intelligent, thinking person would not arrive at the very same explanation you give above which, as you say and "I" have said a number of times, is clearly hyperbole as used by Paul.
How does one refuse to see this?
But then, there are many these days that are so caught up in this fake phenomenon that they would simply close their ears to the truth. These folks believe themselves to be on some Holy Spirit-sanctioned roll and, in truth, really believe themselves to be superior to the 'non-tongue-speakers'. They're on some (fake) spiritual ego-trip. The very word - 'tongues' - has taken on something rather mystical and 'unworldly'. It's a real come-down to these folks that the word simply means 'language' ...and, a known language at that! These folks are too conceited and self-important to ever allow themselves to face the truth and risk looking foolish. As Jack Nicholson sharply retorted in A Few Good Men ...they can't handle the truth!
Probably because it's simply not true.
And the real evidence of conceit, SELF-importance, and an ego trip, and refusing to look foolish comes from the refusal to make of yourselves a living sacrifice and be spiritually set on fire. Peace
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