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[SIZE=+1]1 John 2:19 Explained[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]One must also interpret 1 John. 2:19 with these eighteen Scriptural examples in mind: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us (NKJV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]John can’t be saying here that a saved person could never turn away from God, for there are numerous clear passages which teach otherwise, such as the ones you just read. (This is what this verse is not saying; shortly we’ll look at the immediate context to see what it is saying.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The OSAS proponent, who emphasizes 1 John. 2:19, is in error if he believes that one can’t really be sure another is anything more than just a professing Christian, since only God can see the heart. This OSAS conclusion is part true and part false. (In the natural, we can’t see the roots of a fruit tree, but we can examine the fruit to determine how healthy the unseen roots are!) Scripturally, while it is true that only God can see the heart, Barnabas saw clear, observable evidence that the grace of God brought salvation to some at Antioch (Acts 11:23)! Some of the evidences found in Scripture for such are: The world hating you (John. 15:19), and thinking your separation from their behavior is strange to the point where they heap abuse on you (1 Pet. 4:4), etc. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]True conversion to Christ means being ashamed of your past life of sin(Rom. 6:21) and proving your repentance by your deeds (Acts 26:20). Certainly, these and other factors, like risking his life for the name of Jesus (Acts 15:26), caused the early church to rightly conclude Paul was definitely saved, even though he once hated Christians and tried to destroy the church through persecution. [See [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Sin, Repentance and Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In addition, Paul knew Timothy and Titus were definitely saved (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5). He also believed “loyal yoke fellow” could identify those whose names are in the book of life (Phil. 4:3)! Perhaps the clearest proof of salvation is John. 8:36: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed (NIV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The context bears out that Jesus is speaking of freedom from slavery to sin (v. 34). This is exactly what happened at Corinth. Before their salvation, some in this Greek city were sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers. This is clearly shown in 1 Cor. 6:11: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (NKJV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Because of the grace of God touching their lives, there was an obvious, observable, clean break from this type of behavior! This also explains what it does not mean to be a carnal Christian (1 Cor. 3:3, KJV). Clearly, from 1 Cor. 6:11, carnal Christianity doesn’t allow for the types of sins cited in the two preceding verses that will exclude anyone from the kingdom of God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To learn further what 1 John. 2:19 is saying, we must closely examine: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](1) The immediate context (1 John. 2:18-29); and [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](2) Interpret this Scripture in light of other relevant Scripture, which has just been done.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The immediate context shows that false teachers (Gnostics), whom John calls antichrist (v. 18) were teaching the group of Christians to whom John was writing that Jesus is not the Christ (v. 22). John wrote that such teachers were trying to deceive them (v. 26) into believing their lie about the Lord’s identity. John expresses his godly concern regarding the truth of Jesus Christ’s identity remaining in these Christians, so that they in turn will continue to remain in Christ and in the Father and receive the promised eternal life: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life (1 John. 2:24,25, NIV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The apostles [and prophets] are the foundation on which the church is built (Eph. 2:20). Furthermore, the early church devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching (Acts 2:42). The false teachers that John labeled antichrist apparently knew these things and were claiming to be apostles of Christ too, for the sake of more influence on the people. [Paul also battled with false apostles, 2 Cor. 11:13.] This is how the pronouns they and them in 1 John. 2:19 should be understood. In other words, we should interpret 1 John. 2:19 as follows: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]They [antichrists or false apostles] went out from us [true apostles—teaching others as they went], but they did not really belong to us [true apostles]. For if they [false apostles] had belonged to us [true apostles], they [false apostles] would have remained with us [that is, remained teaching the simple truth which they denied about Jesus being the Christ and not departing us to begin their own separate group, but remaining]; but their going [to teach their lies] showed that none of them [false apostles] belonged to us [true apostles, in spite of their claim].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Also, please note the immediate context shows that the ones who went out from us in verse 19 were false teachers, and not just ordinary laymen, as we would call them in our day![/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In conclusion, we know the following: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](1) If the OSAS interpretation of 1 John. 2:19 was correct, then we could never know if someone was really saved or just a professing Christian who might not be saved. This point has already been dealt with and refuted with Scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](2) If the OSAS interpretation of this key verse is correct, then how could there be at least eighteen Biblical examples of people and types of people who did indeed experience genuine salvation, then afterwards turned away from Christ to the point where they again experienced spiritual death, as already shown? This too would be an impossibility![/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Therefore, by allowing the immediate context of 1 John. 2:19 and these other Scriptures to interpret this passage in question, we must reject the OSAS interpretation of it. 1 John. 2:19 refers to false teachers leaving and not remaining.[/SIZE]
Here is the problem. Osas says to be saved all you have to do is accept Jesus and believe and trust in him without following it up with any fruit, action or (work of faith which the bible speaks of, not that these things save you , but is evidence of the faith) being born again and really being convinced in the heart.
I find statements like this odd and seemingly not well informed. I believe that no Christian will or can be lost, but I also reject any notion that the Christian need not bring forth fruits indicative of salvation.
"Perseverance of the Saints" is a better way to describe the teaching than 'Once Saved Always Saved," since the latter seems to imply that one has license to live any way he pleases after believing in Christ. That, however, is utterly contrary to Scripture. PotS is more biblical because it teaches that the true believer will--not might, but will-- persevere. This happens because God perseveres for him, working in him to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil. 2:12-13).
I think of it this way: Works are necessary for the Christian, but necessary in what sense? There are different kinds of necessity. Works and fruit are not necessary to earn salvation, but they are necessary in that they are the necessary attributes of a true Christian. What do I mean by "necessary attributes"? Any aspect that someone must possess in order to belong to a certain class or category. For example, as humans we are mammals because we have those attributes that make mammals what they are: giving birth to live young, for example. We cannot be mammals without this trait, so this trait is necessary to all mammals. In a similar way, works and fruit are necessary attributes for Christians. One cannot be said to be a Christian if one is devoid of them.
Jremy,,, You may not believe this, but the mainstream christian (especially baptist) are teaching there is nothing you must do or not do to lose salvation.
"Most of those verses really have nothing to do with "once saved always saved". People who are against once saved always usually are people who don't understand the doctrine or they are carnal "Christians" who are struggling with their faith but even that they don't fully understand that only a true Christian can have a struggle with their flesh and spirit. The struggle shows that a person is saved."
How right you are. What it has to do with is "Once saved you can lose salvation"
Anyone can make the same argument you did about struggling. You say the struggle is proof of salvation.
I say it is proof they haven't repented and turned from their sin, so your argument doesn't hold water.
It depends on if the struggle is intentional sin in ones life.
Whats your point?
Last edited by tarzan7777777; 03-03-2010 at 12:53 PM..
Kev K,, The very first post says, your bishop says the Holy spirit will not live you.
He and you need read about Saul and his life, and the rest of the bible about the holy spirit and how Gods word can be choked by the cares of the world.
Jremy,,, You may not believe this, but the mainstream christian (especially baptist) are teaching there is nothing you must do or not do to lose salvation.
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you even meant by this. Could you reword it?
Originally Posted by tarzan7777777 Jremy,,, You may not believe this, but the mainstream christian (especially baptist) are teaching there is nothing you must do or not do to lose salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you even meant by this. Could you reword it?
I go to a Baptist church, so I get what is meant by that. Since Baptists believe once-saved-always-saved, they don't think there is anything you must do after you're saved to make sure you don't lose your salvation, and they don't think there is any sin you can commit to lose your salvation.
They always throw in for good measure that this is only true IF you are TRULY saved.....So, don't be confused, and whatever you do, make sure you are REALLY saved and not just THINK you are REALLY saved to make sure you can never be unsaved. By the way, if you THINK that there's a possibility that you might just THINK you are saved, you are probably not TRULY saved or you wouldn't even consider the possibility, because people who are TRULY saved KNOW they are saved, and understand once-saved-always-saved, so they wouldn't question if they are STILL saved. We've had several teenagers get "TRULY" saved lately, and re-baptized, because the first one didn't count if they weren't REALLY saved. Ugh!
The other thing our church teaches is that there is nothing you have to DO to be saved. It's "grace by faith - plus nothing." A free gift. However, if someone went door-to-door witnessing and told them about Jesus and said there is nothing they have to do because it's a free gift, the person might say, "Great! Now I'm saved! Thanks for telling me! Bye!" But if they started to shut the door at that point, the Baptist would say, "Wait! You need to say the sinner's prayer." They would explain the "ABC's of salvation" - Admit, Believe, Confess. So, that's inconsistent. They really do think there is something you have to DO.
I go to the Baptist church even though I totally believe that God will not burn for eternity someone who He knit together in their mother's womb. Once-saved-always-saved is about as close as you can get in the mainstream denominations to the truth of God's unfailing love, but it doesn't go far enough. Jesus saved us all with his shed blood when He died and rose again. It is finished. He is the Savior of the World!
Originally Posted by tarzan7777777 Jremy,,, You may not believe this, but the mainstream christian (especially baptist) are teaching there is nothing you must do or not do to lose salvation.
I go to a Baptist church, so I get what is meant by that. Since Baptists believe once-saved-always-saved, they don't think there is anything you must do after you're saved to make sure you don't lose your salvation, and they don't think there is any sin you can commit to lose your salvation.
I believe that, too. I also believe that we are commanded to make our calling and election sure, and doing so involves some definite actions to take (2 Peter 1:3-11). That, of course, is not for the purpose of obtaining salvation or making sure that it doesn't get lost, but rather for the purpose of assurance.
Quote:
They always throw in for good measure that this is only true IF you are TRULY saved.....So, don't be confused, and whatever you do, make sure you are REALLY saved and not just THINK you are REALLY saved to make sure you can never be unsaved. By the way, if you THINK that there's a possibility that you might just THINK you are saved, you are probably not TRULY saved or you wouldn't even consider the possibility, because people who are TRULY saved KNOW they are saved, and understand once-saved-always-saved, so they wouldn't question if they are STILL saved.
I would say they are not right about that. It's possible through sin and disobedience to lose the sense of assurance.
Quote:
The other thing our church teaches is that there is nothing you have to DO to be saved. It's "grace by faith - plus nothing." A free gift. However, if someone went door-to-door witnessing and told them about Jesus and said there is nothing they have to do because it's a free gift, the person might say, "Great! Now I'm saved! Thanks for telling me! Bye!" But if they started to shut the door at that point, the Baptist would say, "Wait! You need to say the sinner's prayer." They would explain the "ABC's of salvation" - Admit, Believe, Confess. So, that's inconsistent. They really do think there is something you have to DO.
I can't speak for them, but I believe that some clarity is needed here. If I say that there is nothing we can do to be saved, I am referring to the actual payment for sin, an atonement that could only be accomplished by Christ through his shed blood on the cross. It is that blood, and only that blood, that provides remission of sin. In that sense, there is nothing I can "do" to be saved. There is nothing I can do that has redemptive value for my soul. The ground of our justification is the blood of Christ and his righteousness.
On the other hand, there are, in fact, some things that I must do to lay hold of that payment. This is the crucial difference. The faith and repentance that I do merely lay hold of the salvation that was completed by Christ. Faith does not save us; we are saved through faith in Christ. Like the woman who had the hemorrhage for twelve years said, "If I just touch His garments, I will get well" (Mark 5:28). That is the attitude of faith. We "do" something when we reach out for Christ, but that hand that reaches out simply appropriates the complete salvation already purchased by Christ. There is a vast distinction between cause and agency.
Salvation is likened unto a man drowning in a river. He gets thrown a life ring. If he never grabs a hold
he is likened unto the one that doesn't believe. As long as he hangs on to it he believes and he wont drown, if he lets go, he will die. The river is the Jordan (a type of our life on earth, valley of the shadow of death)
Jesus is our life ring. We can choose to continue in the faith and hang on to the life ring or not.
This is the work of faith. God does his part, we do ours. This is why Paul calls it a race, and not to quit before you get to the finish line.
This is what the bible teaches in a nutshell, which does not equate to "once saved always saved"
because we aren't really ultimately saved until we cross the Jordan of life.
Salvation is likened unto a man drowning in a river. He gets thrown a life ring. If he never grabs a hold
he is likened unto the one that doesn't believe. As long as he hangs on to it he believes and he wont drown, if he lets go, he will die. The river is the Jordan (a type of our life on earth, valley of the shadow of death)
Jesus is our life ring. We can choose to continue in the faith and hang on to the life ring or not.
This is the work of faith. God does his part, we do ours. This is why Paul calls it a race, and not to quit before you get to the finish line.
This is what the bible teaches in a nutshell, which does not equate to "once saved always saved"
because we aren't really ultimately saved until we cross the Jordan of life.
Glory!
However, if the man were drowning and unconscious, he couldn't grab the life ring. Would the savior decide he was out of luck and watch him die, or would the Savior dive in, rescue the perishing, and breathe new life into him? Man is unable to same himself. Only Jesus can save us.
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