What Does The Bible Say About the Ultimate Reconciliation of All (beliefs, scripture)

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

I would venture a guess that if one would bother to read all the verses instead of being selective, a very different conclusion would appear.

i.e.
19) Rm 11:26: All Israel shall be saved

Where does this appear in Romans? At the end of the point, where Paul was making that only a remnant of Israel will be saved. Paul never implies that all (as has UR's want to use it [incorrectly] ) are being saved.

Romans 9:27
"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved."

Paul was writing to non-jews (Romans) who are under the impression that since they aren't of Jewish hertiage, that God will view them differently. For up to this point gentiles were not part of the chosen, only the Jews. Paul's purpose for writing Romans was to assure the gentile Romans that they were now part of the new "Israel"; the one by faith (Romans 4), not one by birth heritage. We know this because Paul says so:
Romans 11:13 "I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry..."

Yet Isaiah says that not all Jews will be saved, only a remnant. And that is were your Romans 11:26 comes in. God rids the branches (the unbelieving Jews) and graphes in their place gentiles who do accept and believe. It is that small combination that God now considers "Israel". That remnant is now the "all shall be saved".


Again, if I wanted to, I would bet that each of the 100 passages that were listed as proof of UR is not that at all. They are part of the comparison between the two groups of people....all of those who reject and all who believe.... aka "sheep and the goats", "those on the left and those on the right".

Romans 11:8-10
as it is written:
8 "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."

9 And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

If you went through the whole list of verses he posted and found 10 you could refute in some way.. do you then dismiss the other 90? At what point would you have to stop and say maybe UR is correct?

I would challenge anyone to look at this list and find a contradiction to each one thus proving the ET/Annihilation theory.. then guess what? So much contradiction refutes the accuracy and believability of the bible. So good luck with that.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Not according to Romans 11:8-10.

Paul is comparing the unbelief of his day to those of Isaiah and David's. For he says:
Romans11:14 "in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them"

some of them is not all of them....and he is only hoping.

Besides all of that....the Truth says:
"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left"

Yes, he desired to save some of them from the destruction that came upon Israel from the Romans in ad 70 ... You are mixing up ultimate salvation from sin and death and salvation from the judgment that came upon Israel at the time of the fall of the temple.

All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left

Again you are mixing up judgments. When Christ returns he will judge the nations, that is those who are left alive after the tribulation of those days that shall come upon the world to try all that dwell(are alive) therein(at that time). Those that are alive at his return who came to believe or who helped those that believed will be allowed to enter the new Jerusalem, and those that did not will be made to stay outside the new Jerusalem in outer darkness.

[svenM]

fruitless discussions, people burning in hell are hardly reconciled with God, in Col. 1:20, Greek ta panta means something like "the whole", the entire creation, the whole universe, it doesn't speak about things, only rational beings can be reconciled to anybody, when the whole rational creation (not things or plants or what else) will be reconciled with God, eternal damnation cannot exist.

A Reply to "Universalism Refuted" - Part One

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Eusebius
And you fail to understand Christ's relationship to every creature. Colossians 1:15 says He is the Firstborn of every creature. That means He is the kinsman redeemer of every creature. That means He must redeem every creature. Colossians 1:20 is the culmination of the redemption. Notice it is "through the blood of His cross" that all are reconciled in the heavens and all on the earth, not "due to having some sort of free will faith from the human."

Also, you write as if salvation is all up to the human. Humans don't believe of their own will to be saved. They believe because God gives them the belief first.

Originally Posted by Mike555

You read what I put in parentheses concernng Col 1:20 and still you fail to comprehend it. Thus you demonstrate that the universalist will not be reasoned with. So be it.

Not really. I read it all.

If you are going to limit the "all" of Colossians 1:20 then you must also limit the all of the preceding verses. Here, I'll do it for you:

"Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of (just some) creature(s), for in Him is (just some) created, (some) in the heavens and (some) on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, (some) is created through Him and for Him, and He is before (some), and (some) has its cohesion in Him." And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in (some) He may be becoming first, for in Him (just some of) the complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile (just some) to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, (some) on the earth or (some) in the heavens." And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight,
(Colossians 1:15-22 CLV)

There, happy now?

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Not really. I read it all.

If you are going to limit the "all" of Colossians 1:20 then you must also limit the all of the preceding verses. Here, I'll do it for you:

"Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of (just some) creature(s), for in Him is (just some) created, (some) in the heavens and (some) on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, (some) is created through Him and for Him, and He is before (some), and (some) has its cohesion in Him." And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in (some) He may be becoming first, for in Him (just some of) the complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile (just some) to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, (some) on the earth or (some) in the heavens." And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight,
(Colossians 1:15-22 CLV)

There, happy now?

You redefine the meaning of reconciliation from what it means to what you want it to mean. And in doing so, you distort the Gospel. Therefore, I simply refer you to Gal. 1:8-9.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by svenM

fruitless discussions, people burning in hell are hardly reconciled with God, in Col. 1:20, Greek ta panta means something like "the whole", the entire creation, the whole universe, it doesn't speak about things, only rational beings can be reconciled to anybody, when the whole rational creation (not things or plants or what else) will be reconciled with God, eternal damnation cannot exist.

A Reply to "Universalism Refuted" - Part One

To those that deny UR: how do you explain to yourself and others that out of the 106 million or so people born on earth since recorded time began that 100 million are in hell and 6 million are in heaven? Who's standard for salvation are you using and what portion of humanity is in hell or going there?

Can hell be more populated than heaven and the gospel still be effective?

[little elmer]

Mike, I promise to rep you if you'll quit bolding your posts.

It's annoying.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by little elmer

Mike, I promise to rep you if you'll quit bolding your posts.

It's annoying.

Are you willfully or unintentionally annoyed ?

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Are you willfully or unintentionally annoyed ?

It's a product of my carnal nature - my spirit embraces the large print.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by little elmer

It's a product of my carnal nature - my spirit embraces the large print.