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Reconciliation means this, and only this: that Christ paid the penalty for every single sin in the human race, therefore removing sin forever as an issue. Therefore, the barrier of sin that separated man from God has been removed. Now this is all that the universalist sees. What the universalist fails or refuses to see, is that reconciliation can only be APPLIED to the person who obeys God's requirement to ''BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.'' The universalist refuses to believe that. Or he rationalizes that everyone will believe after death which is completely unscriptual.
And having read the above, the universalist still will not comprehend it.
I have to say Congrats to Mike here.. I think this is the longest he's posted in a thread about this subject without bailing or getting outright angry.
That said.. The belief in what already took place (reconciliation/barrier between God and man is gone) causes good works.. Works are not a part of salvation. The Reconciliation is the cause of the belief. Without reconciliation man is stuck in unbelief. But one can still not believe the reconciliation happened at all and remain in unbelief by choice.
One is saved from sin/sin nature/fleshly desires. Sin produces bad fruit or rather no fruit. Absence of sin produces good fruit. Who sins? We do...here for we are reconciled with God to save us from our own desire to sin. The result is eternal life-
Eternal life = to know God and his son.
The opposite of eternal life is eternal death
Eternal death = not knowing God and his son.
Reconciliation = "that Christ paid the penalty for every single sin in the human race, therefore removing sin forever as an issue. Therefore, the barrier of sin that separated man from God has been removed."
From your comment alone you are saying that Christ paid the debt but God says we still owe it.
I agree. Christians are reconciled to God our relationship with God was broken. Since God is holy, we were the ones to blame. Our sin alienated us from Him, we are no longer His enemies we are now His friend through the exercise of His grace and forgiveness of our sin.“I no longer call you servants … Instead, I have called you friends” John 15:15
Just because you agree with me doesn't mean we are friends now!
Hey, wait! If I'm reconciled with God and you are too . . . that means we should be friends even if we don't agree on every issue! I mean, God doesn't expect us to "get it all right or else He and I won't be friends," right?
The purpose of the provided information is to reveal universalism for what it is. A Satanic attack on the Gospel.
It is to be expected that those who promote universalism will of course attack anything or anyone that refutes it. There is no point in debating with those who have demonstrated no desire to listen.
For anyone who does care about the truth, feel free to read the link. As far as the universalists...they will continue to do as they do.
I'm not sure I would agree with your interpretation of the Gospel (the Good News) and who are it's participants.
If we read Jesus' own words on this and within their context, as to who He excluded from the Gospel (as opposed to who He included), He tells us with exact detail:
Mat 9:12 And Jesus having heard, said to them, `They who are whole have no need of a physician, but they who are ill;
Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
Mat 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
Mar 2:17 And Jesus, having heard, saith to them, `They who are strong have no need of a physician, but they who are ill; I came not to call righteous men, but sinners to reformation.'
Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'
Jesus sets up His argument and puts two classes of people in direct opposition to each other. The righteous and the unrighteous. Now, you either believe Jesus' words and what he setout to accomplish, or you do not. He said specifically He came to call the unrighteous and to save the lost. Everyone else is excluded.
The ones Jesus specifically excludes from the Gospel call and from the work of His Salvation are the righteous and those who are not lost.
However, Paul who received the Gospel under divine revelation from Jesus, tells us that no one is whole, no one is without sin, no one is righteous and that all are lost (Romans chapter 3-4).
Therefore, there is no one that is not called by the Gospel or for whom Christ's work on the cross does not save.
The real question for you is: Do you believe that Christ accomplished what he came to do? Both Calvinists and Arminians deny the Gospel and the work of Christ when they are confronted with this basic question.
The Gospel is not something that might happen, or is waiting to happen, or may happen based upon what sinners do or do not do. The Gospel is an event that happened 2,000 years ago, before you and I were born. Our sins were either placed on Christ, or they were not. You and I were either imputed with Christ's righteousness at the cross, and declared righteous by His resurrection, or we were not.
I John 5:10-11 tells us that those who do not believe God's testimony concerning Christ make God a liar. How can this be so if these same people were excluded from the Gospel call and from Christ's work? What good news have they not believed that is applicable to them?
If you hold to limited or non effectual atonement, how can someone who does not believe God's testimony be said to make God a liar, if Christ's work did not include them? You can't have it both ways. Both of these groups deny the Gospel's good news. So do those that believe in anything other than Christ's work to save them.
Mar 1:14 And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 and saying, The time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent and believe in the gospel.
Obviously, if the believer is reconciled NOW (Col.1:21) who would think that being at peace with God does not entail salvation? And since the believer is NOW reconciled, Paul is talking about THE REST OF ALL IN THE HEAVENS AND THE REST OF ALL ON THE EARTH that are still at enmity to God who will drop that enmity and become reconciled to God where God and they will be on friendly terms just like we believers are NOW.
So, if the rest of all in the heavens and earth are going to be reconciled and this must be (according to you) by a "mental attitude decision to believe in Christ" then that is what will take place.
And as far as your quote of John 9:36:
Joh 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life (eonian), but the indignation of God is remaining on him."
So the one who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing the life pertaining to the eon (the 1000 year long eon also called the millennium).
It does not say that God's indignation is remaining on him eternally. If it did it would contradict 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11; Col.1:20; Romans 5:18,19 etc.
Isa 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
The bible says clearly that god will not always be wroth. Because if he were always wroth(angry), anyone with whom he was always wroth would cease to exist(be utterly and completely destroyed).
Isa 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
The bible says clearly that god will not always be wroth. Because if he was always wroth(angry), anyone with whom he was always wroth would cease to exist(be utterly and completely destroyed).
Thanks Ironmaw for the good word! You are a blessing!
Yes Christ paid the penalty for every single sin. Its finished.
Where does Col 1:20 say that this reconciliation needs to be "applied" to a person? It already says He is reconciling ALL THINGS. Sounds like its already applied.
Don't you think all will believe when they are confessing His name and swearing allegiance to Him? All will swear allegiance to Christ - that is scriptural.
I think it is you who needs to take the blinders off Mike.
Every single salvation passage that tells you to 'believe' tells you that reconciliation needs to be applied. The universalist does not understand this. Or, again, the universalist makes the unscriptural claim that everyone will believe after death and be saved. But that is unscriptural.
If you were interested in the truth, you would do some research on Rom 14:11; Isa. 45:23; and Phil 2:10-11, all of which speak about the bending of the knee and the confession with the tongue, and find out what it really means.
Every single salvation passage that tells you to 'believe' tells you that reconciliation needs to be applied. The universalist does not understand this. Or, again, the universalist makes the unscriptural claim that everyone will believe after death and be saved. But that is unscriptural.
If you were interested in the truth, you would do some research on Rom 14:11; Isa. 45:23; and Phil 2:10-11, all of which speak about the bending of the knee and the confession with the tongue, and find out what it really means.
Isa 45:23
I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousnes, And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Rom 14:11
11For it is written,
"(A)AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, (B)EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Isa 42:10
Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Psa 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.
Jhn 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Right ... All doesn't mean all, and worship doesn't mean worship ... and praise doesn't means praise ... and believe doesn't mean believe ... Swear allegiance doesn't mean swear allegiance ... etc. etc. etc. ... ... ...
I'm not sure I would agree with your interpretation of the Gospel (the Good News) and who are it's participants.
If we read Jesus' own words on this and within their context, as to who He excluded from the Gospel (as opposed to who He included), He tells us with exact detail:
Mat 9:12 And Jesus having heard, said to them, `They who are whole have no need of a physician, but they who are ill;
Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
Mat 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
Mar 2:17 And Jesus, having heard, saith to them, `They who are strong have no need of a physician, but they who are ill; I came not to call righteous men, but sinners to reformation.'
Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'
Jesus sets up His argument and puts two classes of people in direct opposition to each other. The righteous and the unrighteous. Now, you either believe Jesus' words and what he setout to accomplish, or you do not. He said specifically He came to call the unrighteous and to save the lost. Everyone else is excluded.
The ones Jesus specifically excludes from the Gospel call and from the work of His Salvation are the righteous and those who are not lost.
However, Paul who received the Gospel under divine revelation from Jesus, tells us that no one is whole, no one is without sin, no one is righteous and that all are lost (Romans chapter 3-4).
Therefore, there is no one that is not called by the Gospel or for whom Christ's work on the cross does not save.
The real question for you is: Do you believe that Christ accomplished what he came to do? Both Calvinists and Arminians deny the Gospel and the work of Christ when they are confronted with this basic question.
The Gospel is not something that might happen, or is waiting to happen, or may happen based upon what sinners do or do not do. The Gospel is an event that happened 2,000 years ago, before you and I were born. Our sins were either placed on Christ, or they were not. You and I were either imputed with Christ's righteousness at the cross, and declared righteous by His resurrection, or we were not.
I John 5:10-11 tells us that those who do not believe God's testimony concerning Christ make God a liar. How can this be so if these same people were excluded from the Gospel call and from Christ's work? What good news have they not believed that is applicable to them?
If you hold to limited or non effectual atonement, how can someone who does not believe God's testimony be said to make God a liar, if Christ's work did not include them? You can't have it both ways. Both of these groups deny the Gospel's good news. So do those that believe in anything other than Christ's work to save them.
Mar 1:14 And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 and saying, The time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent and believe in the gospel.
The issue is this.
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17) ''For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18) ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This passage both tells us that Christ died for the sins of the world, and that you must make a decision to believe in Christ to be saved. Reconciliation is appied only to those who believe in Christ for salvation.
If you do not believe in Christ for salvation, then you will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Isa 45:23
I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousnes, And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Rom 14:11
11For it is written,
"(A)AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, (B)EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Isa 42:10
Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Psa 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.
Jhn 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Right ... All doesn't mean all, and worship doesn't mean worship ... and praise doesn't means praise ... and believe doesn't mean believe ... Swear allegiance doesn't mean swear allegiance ... etc. etc. etc. ... ... ...
If you had any interest in the truth, you would find out what those passages really mean. But instead, you redefine them to mean what you want them to mean and reject every single salvation passage which tells you that you Must make a decision to believe. And you would have others disregard the Gospel.
Gal. 1:8-9 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9) As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed.
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All doesn't mean all, and worship doesn't mean worship ... and praise doesn't means praise ... and believe doesn't mean believe ... Swear allegiance doesn't mean swear allegiance ... etc. etc. etc. ... ... ...
