U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,392,677 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
no.

What makes a good work ..... "good" to God?,
And what does "works" have in relationship to salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
very good questions...

1 - Works are good to God when it is actually him working the good works though you...that is what makes them very pleasing to God.

2 - Works are a sign that you have found salvation.
They are an outward sign of an inner redemption.
So you guys are saying that if you don't have good works then you must not have salvation because salvation produces good works?

While it is true that the belief that you have salvation produces good works.. salvation itself does not. You can ignore that you have salvation too.. it is theoretically possible for someone to hear the word of God, receive salvation, but to do nothing with it, producing no works (as the seed that fell in the thorns. Mark 4).

So how then do you say only those who show good works can be "recognized" as having salvation?

Yet in the parable the plants in the thorns survive but produce no fruit...
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:26 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So you guys are saying that if you don't have good works then you must not have salvation because salvation produces good works?
I think Paul answers your question.
He knew that many people said they were saved, and as proof they pointed to their faith.

Paul knew that Faith is never without works, so that is why he pointed to his works to show he was saved.

Works don't save you,
Faith saves alone,
But faith is never alone...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:28 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So how then do you say only those who show good works can be "recognized" as having salvation?
"works" are a sign
works are something I can see that shows me your heart (something I cant see)
That is how we recognize that salvation has come to a person's life.
By the fruit the tree is known.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,392,677 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
So JW's don't believe in Christ now?

No, they don't, they have a false version of Jesus who they claim is an archangel of all things

The JWs are also clue-free as to understanding the trinity and how people are saved.

The JWs have this strange idea that only the Watchtower can give them the truth and explain the Bible to them...sad but true.


YouTube - Dr. Walter Martin - Jehovah's Witnesses and Jesus Christ 1983
Yet truly it is the same as what is done in the trinity... Angel means messenger so it applies to Jesus doesn't it? JW's just don't believe that Jesus is God. It's the same Jesus though.. You didn't say that someone had to believe the exact same thing as everyone else about Jesus including "having him in their hearts" although not in those same words.

Fundamentalists have their leaders who give them the truth and explain the Bible to them.. you have Walter Martin.. Same thing. I don't agree with some of their church practices but then again I don't agree with Pentacostal church practices either.

So what you are saying makes no sense.. how are you able to distinguish their participation in hell simply because they don't believe Jesus is God and they believe Doctrine given by their church leadership. Some christians believe that Jesus came to OT people as an angel.. they believe angels married human women... what is the difference? I don't see how they lose their salvation in your eyes.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:41 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet truly it is ....
You know, one of the reasons I took the time to do a search of a video is that it answers all the questions you asked and it sorta saves time..

but as you have asked anyway.

The JW have a different Jesus, and a different Christianity.
They are not worshiping the same God as is found in the Bible, and that is why they have to change the Bible to better reflect their god.

The JW dont believe in the cross, or that they are saved.
The JW dont even want to go to heaven....(sad but true)

The JW believes in a works-for-salvation that is theirs only because of the watchtower.

The JW believes only the Watchtower has the ability to correctly understand the Bible.

So the fact that a JW believes that there was a guy named "Jesus" is moot.
The Bible tells us that there are many false Christs in the world that lead people astray.
so names are moot, the meanings of things is key.

This is just a small example as to why the JW are lost, why they die and burn in hell, and why we in the Christian church need to make reaching out to the JW a top priority.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia
1,508 posts, read 816,469 times
Reputation: 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
What you do is learn to trust God and leave it at that.

When your loved ones are alive that is the time to worry over them and to help cause them to believe.

But once a person dies, then the point of worrying over their eternal fate ends...
I dont believe in the catholic teachings about praying someone out of Purgatory.
I believe in Purgatory, because I don't believe that God wants anyone in hell unless it is absolutely necessary.
Most people, even in death, can see and reason about what they have done in their life that as good, bad or indifferent.
Does a parent stop loving their child just because they may have done one bad thing? As a parent, as most people are, this is a rhetorical question.
Hell is not a black and white concept in my book, there are plenty of shades of grey.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,094 posts, read 1,077,009 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
that is easy to answer....

One guy does something nice because the affect of the lord on him had caused him to do this act of kindness.

the other guy helps the same way, then calls everyone to brag about what a great guy he is.

This is the reason that Jesus told us that when we stop eating in a prayer fast we should wash our hair and put on our best clothes so that no one will know.

The same fast could be done by a different guy who drags himself around, wearing old clothers, and smelling bad, and everyone one would know that he is really into this fast so he must be very holy.

To sum up.
If the Lord is behind the works that you do, then and only then are they called 'good works" by God.

If God is not behind the works that you do, then it's pointless.
Two identical acts, one done by a Christian and one by a non-Christian, and only the former is good? Then it must follow that if a Christian murders somebody that act is not bad. That explains why Christianity did not make the world a less bloody place. Who are we mere mortals to judge the Spanish Inquisitors as bad people? Torture obviously is only morally wrong if it is perpetrated by non-Christians. Thanks for clearing that up. What a stupid idea of mine that morality is treating others the way you would like to be treated.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:49 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek40 View Post
I believe in Purgatory, because I don't believe that God wants anyone in hell .
I was not aware that the Roman Catholic teachings about Purgatory held that it was a replacement for hell?

Is this official church teachings or are you reaching back and pulling that idea out on your own?

As far as I know, the official Catholic teaching on Purgatory is that it is only for the saved not the lost, and that it with the Lord in a place of growth.
It is a "state"
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:51 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek40 View Post
.
Hell is not a black and white concept in my book, there are plenty of shades of grey.
I expect that the flame of the lake of fire is very bright...heating the bodies of the damned to a nice crispy golden yellow.....for all time...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:54 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeric View Post
Two identical acts, one done by a Christian and one by a non-Christian, and only the former is good? .
The acts are judged as being "good" by God alone....

and they are only good if God is behind the acts and is working though the person.
That is why the acts of a Christian make the Lord smile and tell us, "Well done!"
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top