After Death (punishment, believer, prayer, sin)

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Here's a little diagram of where believers and unbelievers end up after death.

After Death (Visual) : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

If salvation is based upon faith, where do aborted infants go? They obviously carry the sin of Adam from the womb:

Psa 58:3 The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies.

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,

Are you prepared to state that the unborn perish for lack of faith, or knowledge, in Christ's work? Any scriptures to support the erroneous conclusions shown in your diagram?

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

If salvation is based upon faith, where do aborted infants go? They obviously carry the sin of Adam from the womb:

Psa 58:3 The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies.

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,

Are you prepared to state that the unborn perish for lack of faith, or knowledge, in Christ's work? Any scriptures to support the erroneous conclusions shown in your diagram?

Human life begins at birth. The developing fetus in the womb is only a house under construction. There is no occupant in the house under construction. God creates the soul and imputes it to the fetus at the point of birth. When the fetus has taken its first breath on its own, that is, independent of the mother, at that point God breaths the breath of life into that newborn child and a human being has been born. An unborn fetus is not a human being.

This will no doubt raise howls of protest. So be it. It is the Biblical position. And there will be the usual verses misused to contend that there is life in the womb. But there is only biological life in the womb. There is no Human life until the soul is imputed to the body of the newborn infant.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Human life begins at birth. The developing fetus in the womb is only a house under construction. There is no occupant in the house under construction. God creates the soul and imputes it to the fetus at the point of birth. When the fetus has taken its first breath on its own, that is, independent of the mother, at that point God breaths the breath of life into that newborn child and a human being has been born. An unborn fetus is not a human being.

This will no doubt raise howls of protest. So be it. It is the Biblical position. And there will be the usual verses misused to contend that there is life in the womb. But there is only biological life in the womb. There is no Human life until the soul is imputed to the body of the newborn infant.

My best interpretation would tend to agree with you, Mike . . . that really worries me.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Here's a little diagram of where believers and unbelievers end up after death.

After Death (Visual) : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

WOW! Not many choices for the unbelievers. So much for free will

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

There's a line missing... That's odd.

What line?

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Human life begins at birth. The developing fetus in the womb is only a house under construction. There is no occupant in the house under construction. God creates the soul and imputes it to the fetus at the point of birth. When the fetus has taken its first breath on its own, that is, independent of the mother, at that point God breaths the breath of life into that newborn child and a human being has been born. An unborn fetus is not a human being.

This will no doubt raise howls of protest. So be it. It is the Biblical position. And there will be the usual verses misused to contend that there is life in the womb. But there is only biological life in the womb. There is no Human life until the soul is imputed to the body of the newborn infant.

Interesting theory .. though not in the slightest accurate ... At least as far as i understand.

For instance ... What about babies who are born in water? They come out of the mothers womb directly into the water. The doctor holds the babies hand and the baby is suspended in the water, and begins to move about. The baby is sustained for a time by the umbilical cord which is still attached to the mother. So is this baby not a human being yet because it hasn't taken its first breath?

Even in the womb the baby moves about, and is considered to be alive ...


The brain begins to function in the second half of pregnancy ... And around the 23d week begins to experience pain. Not after the baby is born.

What scripture tells us that a baby is not an human being until after it is born pray tell?

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Interesting theory .. though not in the slightest accurate ... At least as far as i understand.

What scripture tells us that a baby is not an human being until after it is born pray tell?

The developing fetus has life and is always human, Ironmaw . . . it just doesn't have the "seed of a soul" planted until birth. Even after birth a baby is not capable of anything requiring cognitive thought. It takes several weeks for the "seed" of soul to "germinate."

[JamesMRohde]

the following is an excerpt from my, "Death Does Not Determine Destiny". . .

Jesus is not a two-faced schizophrenic, one way with some people and another with the rest. Some have tried to make Him that way by falsely teaching God has multiple thrones. Paul says it doesn't even matter if they are of the original apostles, God is no respecter or persons. (cp. Ga 2:6) "For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living." (Rm 14:9, CLT) A little later (vs.11) it says, "...For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!" Obviously, if that doesn't happen during our short sojourn in this veil of corruptible flesh it must happen beyond. "Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord! (cp., Php 2:10-11) I believe Scripture when it says, "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Co 12:3, AV) God's word is also quite clear that: "...if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved." (Rm 10:9, CLT) Surely those raised from the dead and standing before a resurrected immortal and glorified Jesus will believe He is raised from the dead! This is tracing what the Scripture speaks concerning certain matters beyond the life in this body of humiliation. The Holy Scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. If it did it could not be true that, "...the day of death [is better] than the day of one's birth. (Ec 7:1)

Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25-26) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"

After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Pet 3:18-20, AV) It is definitely taught by God's own word that: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6, AV)

In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him. Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die. The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him." That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 AV) "Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice...I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple." (Jonah 2:1-2, 6-7, AV)

The verse fragment, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..." (Heb 9:27, AV) is what people use to supposedly back up the idea that once you die it's too late to come to faith. Whatever it means, it certainly does not in any way say such a thing and it doesn't seem possible to make it even infer it. This passage is in the midst of the following larger quote giving it a context: "...yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after (altternatively, "with") this a judging, thus Christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith." (Heb 9:26B-28, CLV) In the context, which I quoted, Christ is presented as our judgment for sin. An interesting cross reference here is, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7, AV) The word "freed" isn't in the original. It has "justified," which means to be declared right as a result of a judicial investigation. The judgment for sin according to the Bible is death. This corresponds with rendering Heb 9:27, "With this the judgment..." which may be even more supported by pointing out the Greek word meta in this phrase is translated "with" 346 times compared to "after" only 95 times by the Authorized Version.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

The developing fetus has life and is always human, Ironmaw . . . it just doesn't have the "seed of a soul" planted until birth. Even after birth a baby is not capable of anything requiring cognitive thought. It takes several weeks for the "seed" of soul to "germinate."

A soul is not only cognitive, but sensitive. And a baby begins to feel pain in around the 23d week of pregnancy.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

A soul is not only cognitive, but sensitive. And a baby begins to feel pain in around the 23d week of pregnancy.

That is our physical partner . . . our animal nature, Ironmaw. It is the one that gives us so much trouble as we develop because our soul is so weak at first (a mere "seed", then a "sprout" . . . etc.) while our physical partner is fully functional.