U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-04-2009, 10:44 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,451,056 times
Reputation: 746

Advertisements

....especially when dealing with the carnal mind. I have heard many in here twist the law to fit their own agenda like the Pharisees did, now I am not calling anyone pharisees or diobedient but in your haste or zeal to call someone a legalist they themselves are guilty as well. Somehow there are two sides fighting about the law-one side talks about the commandments the other side say, it's love that Jesus talked about but they are one in the same, the debate should be how the law is used. It is about measuring not striving.

The Greatest Commandment
(Matthew 22:32-40)
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Verse 40 absoultely clarifies that all the laws are one in the same with the 10 commandments (9 of which carried over from the OT except the Sabbath which now everyday for a Christian is Sabbath)

Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image....
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

"And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."
5. Honor thy father and thy mother:
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.....

It is clear that the commandments is split into two groups, the same people who say we should embrace the two commandments that Jesus gave (basically repeating the commandments from the OT) because to embrace the 10 commandments is legalism, they say we should love our neighbor...well yes and no of course we should love our neighbor but this is not something we strive to do in order to obtain salvation but it is evidence by what we measure ourselves (measure our love for our neighbor by what we wish for ourselves) if we are striving to love our neighbor so as to prove our worth or somehow prove we are Christians then we are making the same mistake the pharisees made as they turned the law into a strife rather than a mirror; a school teacher.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the 10 commandments as it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the 2 commandments Jesus gave because we are sinners, we are carnal and unholy. We can't love God with all our hearts, all our soul, all our mind all the time nor can we love our neighbours as we love oursleves all the time because we covet, lust, get angry on the road at another driver etc...... if the case was strife rather than measuring then we should give everything we own to the poor. You can only free yourself from the Law by putting the law in its proper place, it is a constant reminder to show the sinner that it is impossible to keep and by our own strifes we are condemned so we are in desperate need of a saviour which is Jesus Christ.

So in summation when Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as yourself." it is to measure our love for our neighbor by what we wish for ourselves. You can't dictate what love is and how we should love only the Holy Spirit can do that through the individual, if an individual believes hearing about sin and repentance was love for him or her when they became saved well then they believe it is love for their neighbor to hear for them to be saved as well and they violate no "law of love"

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 11-04-2009 at 11:05 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:03 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,554,397 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
It is about measuring not striving.
That sums it up for me.

We can (and I believe should) judge ourselves, but not the next guy. When we see things in ourselves that fall short, that is when we run to Him for "burning", "purging", or whatever you call the trip behind the wood shed between you and our Daddy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:07 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,451,056 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
That sums it up for me.

We can (and I believe should) judge ourselves, but not the next guy. When we see things in ourselves that fall short, that is when we run to Him for "burning", "purging", or whatever you call the trip behind the wood shed between you and our Daddy.
So if we see our sister in law cheating on our brother, we shouldn't go to her and tell her stop?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:14 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,554,397 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
So if we see our sister in law cheating on our brother, we shouldn't go to her and tell her stop?
I'm an only child - now, if it was MY wife...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
....especially when dealing with the carnal mind. I have heard many in here twist the law to fit their own agenda like the Pharisees did, now I am not calling anyone pharisees or diobedient but in your haste or zeal to call someone a legalist they themselves are guilty as well. Somehow there are two sides fighting about the law-one side talks about the commandments the other side say, it's love that Jesus talked about but they are one in the same, the debate should be how the law is used. It is about measuring not striving.
I disagree. The law is a heavy burden that hinders progression toward perfection in Love.

Psalm 40:12-13 For evils beyond number have surrounded me; My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to see; They are more numerous than the hairs of my head, And my heart has failed me. Be pleased, O LORD, to save me; O LORD, come quickly to help me.

What did David mean here? To lay more burden by explaining the law? He was striving to keep the law and messed up.. so the measurement was done by him already. There is no self-love there. But that last sentence shows that it is Gods love (be pleased) that helps him to overcome the burden of the law and guilt so that he can once again strive to love himself and God to fulfill the commandments.

Quote:
The Greatest Commandment
(Matthew 22:32-40)
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Verse 40 absoultely clarifies that all the laws are one in the same with the 10 commandements (9 of which carried over from the OT except the Sabbath which now everyday for a Christian is Sabbath)

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image....
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother:
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.....

It is clear that the commandments is split into two groups, the same people who say we should embrace the two commandments that Jesus gave basically repeating the commandments from the OT because to embrace the 10 commandments is legalism,
However.. Love causes the commandments to be upheld... you are saying that keeping the commandments causes love. or in the lease shows love. That the commandments "hang on" or "depend on" is clear in the part you made bold. So when you are legalistic you are actually doing what the Pharisees did... Saying that the only way to show love is to keep the commandments without the commandments independent of Love.



Quote:
they say we should love our neighbor...well yes and no of course we should love our neighbor but this is not something we strive to do but that we should use to measure (measure our love for our neighbor by what we wish for ourselves) if we are striving to love our neighbor so as to prove our worth or somehow prove we are Christians then we are making the same mistake the pharisees made as they turned the law into a strife rather than a mirror; a school teacher.

Jesus said to the Pharisees when his disciples were accused of not following the Law:
You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: "These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men." (Matt. 15:7-9)


Luke 11:39 But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness.

They didn't keep the law because out of Love for their neighbor they did it out of vanity, complacency, and pride. When you love your neighbor you do as Jesus did.. he healed the sick woman despite the Sabbath. You help a sinner despite the sin. You kill the man trying to rape your wife (..as examples of things you may have to do but obviously you want to avoid killing anyone if possible.)

Matt. 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Quote:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the 10 commandements as it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the 2 commandments Jesus gave because we are sinners, we are carnal and unholy. We can't love God with all our hearts, all our soul, all our mind all the time nor can we love our neighbours as we love oursleves all the time because if that is the case then we should give everything we own to the poor.
But in reality you can love your neighbor by giving to your neighbor in other ways and not just giving everything you own. It is a mindset. If your mind is always focused on what is loving to do then you will always follow the will of God. Sometimes it is more loving to say no than yes. Sometimes it is more loving to take something away from someone than to give something. It is a mindset that we do what is loving. That is why Jesus said for the rich man to give away all that he had.

Because his mindset was that he could ignore others while following Christ.. notice that Zacchaeus states he will pay back what he owes.. etc. His mindset is that he will love his neighbor, and yet Christ doesn't say to go give all his possessions away and come back to.. he accepts him. In fact, Jesus didn't even have to hear Zacchaeus say anything and he knew his mindset was different than the other rich guy who asked what he must DO.

Quote:
You can only free yourself from the Law by putting the law in its proper place, it is a constant reminder to show the sinner that it is impossible to keep and by ourselves we are condemned so we need help in we are in desperate need of a saviour which is Jesus Christ.
At some point in your education you should go out on your own. Criminals need Police to keep them in line. If there were no criminals then there would be no need for police. You shouldn't need the Law unless you are prone to breaking it. If you love your neighbor as yourself there is no need to constantly look to the law because you will already be doing what is right and for the right reasons.

Quote:
So in summation when Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as yourself." it is to measure our love for our neighbor by what we wish for ourselves. You can't dictate what love is and how we should love only the Holy Spirit can do that through the individual, if an individual believes hearing about sin and repentance was love for him or her when they became saved well then they believe it is love for their neighbor to hear for them to be saved as well and they violate no "law of love"
I don't even get what you are saying here...
Are you saying that hearing about sin and repentance is love from God? Telling someone about sin and repentance cannot be showing love because love doesn't judge. If you are an example of Love then others will want to have what you have.. a relationship with the God of Love. And you don't have to say anything. There is no need to preach sin and repentance.. that is placing a burden on the hearer and is the speaker is then judging the one spoken to. We are not called to judge, we are called to Love.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:53 AM
 
988 posts, read 1,574,440 times
Reputation: 116
That was a very good post Fundy - logical and rational - UNTIL you said:

Quote:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the 10 commandments as it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the 2 commandments Jesus gave because we are sinners, we are carnal and unholy.

If it was impossible to keep them why would God command us to do it? It is impossible for those who are called but have not truly repented and received the Holy Spirit.

That is the case of most on this forum - they are believers who have not been converted; believers who have not repented and received the Holy Spirit by whose power we are able to obey.

If we cannot keep the commandments (stop committing sin) then all of the following standards and tests are nonsensical absurdities.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus:
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


On this forum we have the testimony of those who are the children of God and those who believe but are not yet children of God.

Both describe the spiritual reality in their lives accurately - one group says they cannot keep the commandments and the other says they can.

Those who cannot keep them are often belligerent and attack those who simply quote the Scriptures as I did above. Their reaction is understandable - if those Scriptures are correct then even though they believe they remain children of the Devil and lost.

In a sense they are fighting for their lives. The Scriptures make them feel condemned and rather than repent they attack those who quote God and say "They are heaping condemnation on me".

Sadly - this situation will never stop and has always existed when someone says "Repent or be lost". That is what Jesus said and the religious believers of His time wanted to kill Him. It is the same today for those who quote Jesus.

HK
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
So if we see our sister in law cheating on our brother, we shouldn't go to her and tell her stop?
How about you go to the sister-in-law and apologize for being a peeping tom.. How can you see her cheating if you aren't watching her cheat... it is just speculation unless you witness it first hand..

But if you see something going on that looks like cheating, what business of yours is it?

I was cheated on once. My best friend knew about it, but kept it to herself. At first I thought that was cruel but then she reminded me that it was none of her business and that she told me over and over he was not right for me but I never listened. In hindsight, I would have to agree with her that she did the right thing. I may have totally rejected her and I would have missed out on her friendship which was what got me through the whole break-up later. She withheld the information from me out of love for me. She told me later when I was emotionally able to handle it, and had made up my mind that it was already true. Therefore it was not an oversight but an act of love.

It is none of your business. It is theirs. If your brother asked you if you had seen evidence of cheating from your sister-in-law that would be the only appropriate place to discuss what you have seen. IMHO
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
If it was impossible to keep them why would God command us to do it? It is impossible for those who are called but have not truly repented and received the Holy Spirit.

That is the case of most on this forum - they are believers who have not been converted; believers who have not repented and received the Holy Spirit by whose power we are able to obey.

If we cannot keep the commandments (stop committing sin) then all of the following standards and tests are nonsensical absurdities.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus:
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


On this forum we have the testimony of those who are the children of God and those who believe but are not yet children of God.

Both describe the spiritual reality in their lives accurately - one group says they cannot keep the commandments and the other says they can.

Those who cannot keep them are often belligerent and attack those who simply quote the Scriptures as I did above. Their reaction is understandable - if those Scriptures are correct then even though they believe they remain children of the Devil and lost.

In a sense they are fighting for their lives. The Scriptures make them feel condemned and rather than repent they attack those who quote God and say "They are heaping condemnation on me".

Sadly - this situation will never stop and has always existed when someone says "Repent or be lost". That is what Jesus said and the religious believers of His time wanted to kill Him. It is the same today for those who quote Jesus.

HK
It is impossible to keep man's interpretation of the law.. it is easy to keep the law.

If I go through the commandments I can say that right now I am breaking none of them. Yet as I type I am smoking a cigarette....

Am I breaking the commandments?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:06 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,574,440 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
However.. Love causes the commandments to be upheld... you are saying that keeping the commandments causes love. or in the lease shows love. That the commandments "hang on" or "depend on" is clear in the part you made bold. So when you are legalistic you are actually doing what the Pharisees did... Saying that the only way to show love is to keep the commandments without the commandments independent of Love.

Are you saying that love is something separate from keeping the commandments?

Can we love God even though we are breaking his commandments?

HK
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:07 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,451,056 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
How about you go to the sister-in-law and apologize for being a peeping tom.. How can you see her cheating if you aren't watching her cheat... it is just speculation unless you witness it first hand..

But if you see something going on that looks like cheating, what business of yours is it?

I was cheated on once. My best friend knew about it, but kept it to herself. At first I thought that was cruel but then she reminded me that it was none of her business and that she told me over and over he was not right for me but I never listened. In hindsight, I would have to agree with her that she did the right thing. I may have totally rejected her and I would have missed out on her friendship which was what got me through the whole break-up later. She withheld the information from me out of love for me. She told me later when I was emotionally able to handle it, and had made up my mind that it was already true. Therefore it was not an oversight but an act of love.

It is none of your business. It is theirs. If your brother asked you if you had seen evidence of cheating from your sister-in-law that would be the only appropriate place to discuss what you have seen. IMHO
Ummmm....first-WOW!.....second. I know I would want someone to tell me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top