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God also speaks in Malachi stating that Elijah will return on the dreaded day that He make his judgment, too. But in keeping with Christianity I wanted the verse where Jesus implies it, too.
More than ever all this leads me back to my original question. Are the 2 witnesses literal or symbolic?
Also, will Elijah die his physical death in Revelation 11?
Some today think that as Jesus Christ the Seed died and arose from the dead to be head of a many-membered body of Christ the crop, so Elijah the man came again as John in the Spirit of Elijah (which is the Holy Spirit of God that made him what he was) and will come in a many-membered body, possibly in our day. This is Overcomers in the Church who each in their own appointed places minister to the rest of the Church to prepare it to enter on into the Feast of Tabernacles and to the world to enter the Millenium. It has been years since I quickly went over a book with that sort of thesis called The Elijah Generation. I don't recall the author.
On the other hand, the Book of Revelation might mean what it says when it calls them the "two Witnesses...
and it's not an accident that the Text clearly points to only Moses and Elijah as being the two Witnesses,
And it is also no accident that the two guys pointed to in the Book of Revelation happen also to turn up at the very same time talking to Jesus before the cross.
This cant all be just a coincidence....
Of all the people in the Bible we find two guys that lived in totally different times, turning up both at the Mt of Transfiguration and in the Book of Revelation.....
Who do you believe are the two witnesses of Revelation?
The Lord's Two Witnesses Will Prophesy Rev 11:1-13 (KJV) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. The Two Witness Are Killed
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies
three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. The Two Witness Are Resurrected
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
The Last Trumpet: The Kingdom is Proclaimed
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The Lord's Two Witnesses Moses and Elias Matt 17:1-13 (KJV) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore allthings. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
I would like to say something but think I on one will listen, it is just my aopinion. TheWordIsOne Thank You
Point #1: The two witnesses are NOT Elijah or Moses. They (the two witnesses) BOTH can stop rain and BOTH turn water to blood. Not many people see that. So witness #1 has both powers and so too does witness #2!!
If I was Witness #2 I would have the characteristics of *BOTH* Moses AND Elijah. And so too would Witness #1. Moses and Elijah's characteristics within EACH witness, BOTH operating in them at the same time!
Point #2: Moses Died. How many times is it given for man to die? Once (Heb. 9:27). You cannot be resurrected twice. You can be raised from the dead yes. But NOT resurrected twice. So that rules him out; Also, he would have been aware of his pending resurrection in the next week or so whilst speaking with the Lord on the Mt. of Transfiguration. Luke 27:52-53 tells us that many of the saints were resurrected shortly after the Lord was.
Point #3: Elijah and Enoch would from one form of logic seem to be the next likely candidates for the two witnesses since neither have died however *WHY* can't the two witnesses be born like you and me? Why?!! Please tell me (book, chapter and verse - thanks). If it's Enoch and Elijah then what's Moses' characteristics doing listed in Rev. 11:6? So that would rule Enoch out right there since he did not exhibit Elijah's or Moses' miracles (no offense intended in the slightest either to him). PLUS... it is biblically possible that these both were changed in a twinkling of an eye after the resurrection of the Lord, just as the saints were resurrected after Him and just like those on the Lord's Remnant List will be too (1 Cor. 15:51-52 + 1 Thess. 4:17).
Point #4: Elijah will NOT be returning at all! No. I can prove it from the Bible. There are two prophecies regarding Elijah's return and only two. They both occur in Malachi. They are Mal. 3:1 and 4:6. BOTH are talking about Elijah (a.k.a. 'Elias' in the New Testament). The first one (Mal. 3:1) isn't clear about this though... until we get to Matt. 11. This chapter tells us conclusively that BOTH Malachi's prophecies about Elijah were fulfilled by John the Baptist! Why do so many people misread this and teach Elijah is coming back when he is NOT!? Only two possibilities: False prophets/teachers or not reading the Bible properly.....
Let me quote Matt. 11:
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
The Lord is quoting the Mal. 3:1 prophecy. Prophecy fulfilled.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
The Lord here is referring to the the Mal. 4:6 prophecy. Prophecy fulfilled.
Conclusion: That's BOTH prophecies fulfilled in John the Baptist! Elijah will NOT be coming back in our time - except with the saints, angels, and the Lord in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Armageddon - Rev. 19:11-14).
Point #5: The Blessing of Abraham will be ministered through them and them ONLY - i.e. the rains/drought, water (Blessing) to blood (Cursing). The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made believers free from the Law of Sin and Death (Rom. 8:2) so that would mean that these things are done only to the unbelieving world at large so the Christians are truly untouchable by all this. AND also untouchable by the plagues too (Ps. 91:10).
Point #6: I can prove biblically that they were angels in Heaven before being born and that this is NOT uncommon. Michael himself will/has arise/n in the last days (Dan. 12:1) as a human. They are the two lampstands that stood *BY* the God of the whole earth (Zech. 4:14). Where is that? Yes, Heaven. Where His throne is (Ps. 9:8). How can you stand by God unless you are in the same vicinity as Him? It IS a proximity issue:
"Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
We see an expression occurring several times in both the OT and NT: "on the right hand and on the left" to express the proximity of persons or objects to a person or object. Here are some examples:
[+] "...What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?" (Zec4:11)
[+] "...I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left." (2 Chron. 18:18).
[+] "...there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left." (Luke 23:33).
[+] "...And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof." (Zech. 4:3).
Conclusion: In all of these examples we see that the objects/persons were in close proximity to the person (of the Lord) or objects (the Bowl, the candlestick). We can conclude then that the two oive trees stood by God. More can be concluded from this too but I will leave it at that.
So were they really angels? Well, no man had ascended to Heaven (John 3:13). And remember that the Lord said this some 500 years AFTER this (the two olive trees standing beside God) was revealed to Zechariah. So they definitely can't have been mortals/men then! We also know this because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). The only other possibility IS angels! It can't be the 24 elders because they may not have been there in Heaven back then. Anyways, let's not speculate as to which to angels they were. The facts are what they were.
Point #7: All saints have overcome Satan by faith in Jesus Christ (1 John 2:13-14). Satan makes war with these anyway and ONLY these (Rev. 12:17, 14:12) - not his own as that would be disastrous (Matt. 12:25-26). So too have the two witnesses overcome Satan, so perhaps this is the reason why the Beast (Abaddon formerly known as one of the former 5 kings, now an angel but still a king) makes war with them (and to follow, the saints afterward) instead and perhaps could be why he overcomes them. His war is spiritual (since he is an angel/spirit + Eph. 6:12) and then mental (Dan. 7:25). Paul and Peter willingly gave themselves up to be martyred but these two for some reason do not. Instead they are overcome (which suggests they offer resistance/fight back) and then are killed. But perhaps they do give themselves up to be killed since Satan's hit list of martyrs (Corresponding with Rev. 6:11) are at war with him, many of which gave themselves up to be martyred.
Conclusion: THEIR IDENTITY IS KNOWN TO MANY RIGHT NOW BUT no one is talking. I believe this is because like John the Baptist it was not necessarily the man that was important as it was the man's witness (John 1:7-8) - even though he was the greatest man ever to be born (). They were angels in Heaven. Are born as was Jeremiah, formed in their mother's womb, and pre-destined/ordained to be prophets to the nations. These two are great men because only the Lord himself was the only other one to be resurrected shortly after His death. This is an act of the Lord Himself NOT of themselves. The Lord exalts the humble. Sackcloth is usually a sign of repentance on the part of the one wearing it as also the people on whose behalf it is on.
May I learn to be humble too.
Last edited by BlumbySum; 11-30-2009 at 12:50 PM..
The Beast does (obviously - Rev. 11:7). Satan does. It trickles down from there. He would probably inform all his top people throughout those 3 types of organizations and throughout pretty much his entire kingdom. He would have informed them that they had been born upon the earth thus (since we know he knew when the Lord was going to be born and positioned himself in the Roman empire to devour Him - Rev. 12:4) like hungry wolves would watch these two growing up (probably oblivious to who they were and normal as the kid down the road).
One thing you have to remember is that the Beast War of Daniel 7:25 is a secret one (I studied the Hebrew and saw this to be so - no lie). I believe the Beast organization is a secret one too. This is no surprise (to me at least) since Abaddon and his locust army is the Beast and kingdom of the revived Rome (as far as my studies have indicated) is of a spiritual nature - therefore not discernible to normal human eyes. However he is no longer a human (since he has already lived and died - Heb. 9:27) therefore the world worships what? The IMAGE of the Beast. See that? What gets set-up PHYSICALLY in the Temple of God? The IMAGE of the Beast. This is the physical representation of the spiritual (and evil) reality. Idol worship in the Old Testament was exactly this: Worshiping devils/demons. He is the King of the demons no? (see Rev. 9:11 - 9/11 is no mistake either since that was a Satanic warning of the pending assassination of the two witnesses - they know who they are).
It's a secret I believe for the sake of the detriment of the saints at large. Admittedly this is conjecture on my part. But hear me out: If the saints were to find out who the two witnesses are this would help them in boosting their faith and morale and thus hurt Satan's chances at hurting them. The less they know the more he can do to hurt them right? Ignorance has always been one of his weapons. That is why he has so many false teachers spreading so many false ideas and doctrines so as profit from and not spare the flock - as the Lord foretold. They both are everywhere man. They are a plague, ironically.
Anyway, socially, yes. YouTube users, and internet users do know who they but are just playing the game along with their leader Satan to play them down, keep them under wraps BUT there are spiritual realities that the two witnesses and some saints now know about. Stuff that parallels the Matrix. No lie. Fact. This level of existence is spiritual in nature but is very strange (I could tell you some things). I believe this is the level that Abaddon is/will be worshiped on AND the level that the two witnesses will prophecy on and send out plagues etc. I have even seen some comment on this too on YouTube saying something to the effect that they have an interface with the Beast-Net - the common thread connecting all citizens of the devil's kingdom - but not made publicly mainstream. And this ability is from the Lord. I've departed form the Bible somewhat but there is nothing written about what they will do during their testimony is there? Perhaps because the very nature of it would be beyond what's considered normal - even in our day and age. However these details (to me at least) are not what's important - but the message they bear. It's all about the bigger picture of the Lord's plan and giving the world one last chance (well technically the second to last chance - if you count Rev. 14:6-11) to make a decision to repent and so forth to avoid eternal damnation. There's so much to say about these two that I've learned about them that I was really surprised at what is written between the lines of Rev. 11:3-13. The Bible is a truly amazing book with so much knowledge in it to teach us wisdom in how to handle so many things in life and especially how to wage combat against the devil and his spiritual and psychological attacks.
Praise be to the lord God almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
Last edited by BlumbySum; 11-30-2009 at 03:18 PM..
You know, I like this thread. It is a friendly debate, and from what I have seen not to many if no ignorant things said. Now I am not going to try and claim, or guess whom or what the 2 witnesses are. There is just not enough information. I just want to thank the person who started this thread, for it. It has been a fun read.
You are partially correct however I have offered evidence - irrefutable at that - that they are not Elijah or Moses - though they come in the spirit and power of BOTH of them at the same time each: Witness #1 can do what Moses did and what Elijah did, and Witness #2 can too. They both carry both mantles. See that? Read Rev.11:6 again you'll see this is so. My first post on page 7 on this thread offers biblical proof that they were angels in Heaven FIRST and will not be either Moses, Enoch or Elijah. Fact. No former prophet will be coming back to fill these roles.
Why do they have to? Who made that rule up? Who? Tell me someone.
The acts that the Two witnesses perform are connected to only two guys in all of human history!
The connection is hard to miss.
Clearly the writer John wants us to catch from this description who the two Witnesses are .
Jesus talks about the two witnesses in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Moses and Elijah turn up on the Mt of Transfiguration, and they seem real enough to get Peter the idea that he should build a shelter for them.
I dont think Peter would have suggested such a building project had Moses just been a ghost or some type of vapors spirit.
The problem with my idea being correct is that while everyone agrees that Eligah might be one of the Witnesses, the fact that moses clearly died is a problem for some people to deal with.
However the fact that we know there is a very different addition to the story of the body of Moses that puts his whole continued death is doubt...
Thus you cant cross Moses off the list of possible members of the Revelation's two Witnesses as yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
If this is literal then how is it they die? The beast kills them so the statement "This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die." Yet the beast overpowers them.
First, most will agree that Moses died. How can he die again? Second, who or what is the beast that can kill them?
@alanMolstad:
Moses is not going to be one of the two witnesses. He has already died and been resurrected as reported in Luke 27:52-53.
It is given to man to die once (Heb. 9:27).
@katjonjj:
You said:
"If this is literal then how is it they die? The beast kills them so the statement "This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die." Yet the beast overpowers them."
Good questions.
Honestly I'm not really sure how. I believe it is symbolic fire (Strong's reads figuratively 'lightning' or literally fire). There is no biblical precedence for literal fire coming out of someone's mouth. But there is a precedence for symbolic fire coming out of someone's mouth and that was Jeremiah (Jer. 5:14). Looking at the word "killed" this can be figurative as well. So maybe their identity has to be changed - they have to move to another country, change their name or something like that - which is a merciful provision of the Lord to do this. It's better than going to hell.
So anyway putting these together it would lean toward it all being figurative not literal (with Jeremiah 5:14 as the deciding vote so to speak).
Ironically the two witnesses actually do die a literal death. And that from who knows where or how.
But this much is true of the Beast:
It is a kingdom. In the Bible a Beast always refers to a kingdom. This kingdom is made up of a king and his subjects. This king was once a man (one of the 7 kings - actually studying it closely and you'll see it was actually one of the 5 former kings who had already fallen - Rev. 17:8, 11), but he is now an angel: the angel of The Bottomless Pit. His new name is Abaddon/Apollyon and he is still a king (Rev. 9:11).
Since he is an angel that makes him a spirit and therefore he cannot be killed by the two witnesses. His (and Satan's) war is a legal one (1 Peter 5:8-9), a spiritual one (Eph. 6:12), and a mental one (Dan. 7:25), a financial one (Rev. 13, and a physical one (Rev. 11:7 + 6:11). Study the original languages (Hebrew, Aramiac, Greek) for verification of these things.
So they have an entire kingdom (both spiritual and human) making war against them. There has never been a precedence of this ever in history - an entire kingdom coming again just two individuals. The only other one to dwarf this is the War at Armageddon where the Lord ALONE will tead the Winepress of the Wrath of Almighty God and ALONE will defeat the armies of the Beast and the devil and the kingdoms of this world - WITH THE WORD.
With the Word He will raise the dead in Christ. With the word He will destroy the wicked.
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The Lord's two witnesses will prophesy
Thank You 
, and a physical one (Rev. 11:7 + 6:11). Study the original languages (Hebrew, Aramiac, Greek) for verification of these things.
