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I don't know what you are discussing. Nor do I care. I have just shown you that in the case of the unbeliever being cast into the lake of fire, it Does mean 'irreversible doom,' as shown in these passages.
You are quoting mistranslations, and other verses which speak of destruction, without considering that Christ came to save those that are so destroyed ... That is all ... Jesus was clear about his desire that God forgive sinners. The bible is clear that God is the savior of all men, especially the believers(1Tim 4:10). And Jesus is clear that mankind will be forgiven even for speaking against him(Luk 12:10). Yes, the blasphemy of the holy spirit by others will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come, and Christ will not claim to know them that deny him as his own, because though the many are called to salvation, only a few are chosen to rule with Christ. Did he not pray God forgive even those who had him murdered? Even the very people he called the sons of hell, and children of the devil?
Luk 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Now consider the parable of the two debtors Given to Simon the Pharisee ...
Luke 7:39-47
39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. 40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
So when the time is come that God shall judge the world in righteousness, and the whole world will learn righteousness thereby ... Who do you think will love Christ the most in that day? Even as there are some who say they do not sin and need not be forgiven much any more ... But those who have many sins and will be forgiven will love him all the more in that day.
And so will those who now think themselves worthy of salvation or without many sins, who think themselves the only ones to be saved; so will they complain in that day when those who have come late to the lord are given the same reward.
Matt 20:1-16
1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Yet so many cannot and will not understand this, therefore they shall be last, and those who come at the end will be before them.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-08-2009 at 05:15 AM..
Yet so many cannot and will not understand this, therefore they shall be last, and those who come at the end will be before them.
Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you
The two highlighted words "go...before" are from a single greek word that mean "precede" or "lead forth". In every instance there is someone or something preceding and someone or something following after.
Matthew 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Matthew 14:22 And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.
Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Mark 10:32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,
1Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
The publicans and sinners precede the pharisees into the kingdom of God.
You are quoting mistranslations, and other verses which speak of destruction, without considering that Christ came to save those that are so destroyed ... That is all ... Jesus was clear about his desire that God forgive sinners. The bible is clear that God is the savior of all men, especially the believers(1Tim 4:10). And Jesus is clear that mankind will be forgiven even for speaking against him(Luk 12:10). Yes, the blasphemy of the holy spirit by others will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come, and Christ will not claim to know them that deny him as his own, because though the many are called to salvation, only a few are chosen to rule with Christ. Did he not pray God forgive even those who had him murdered? Even the very people he called the sons of hell, and children of the devil?
Luk 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Now consider the parable of the two debtors Given to Simon the Pharisee ...
Luke 7:39-47
39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. 40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
So when the time is come that God shall judge the world in righteousness, and the whole world will learn righteousness thereby ... Who do you think will love Christ the most in that day? Even as there are some who say they do not sin and need not be forgiven much any more ... But those who have many sins and will be forgiven will love him all the more in that day.
And so will those who now think themselves worthy of salvation or without many sins, who think themselves the only ones to be saved; so will they complain in that day when those who have come late to the lord are given the same reward.
Matt 20:1-16
1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Yet so many cannot and will not understand this, therefore they shall be last, and those who come at the end will be before them.
But let's see what Young's Literal Translation has to say about Matthew 10:28.
And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
And what is gehenna? It's not a referrence to the trash heap outside of Jerusalem. Jesus just said in Matthew 10:28 that man can kill the body, but not the soul. And yet, he just said that God can kill both body and soul in gehenna. If man could, by throwing someone in the trashheap outside of Jerusalem kill the body but not the soul, and yet God can kill both body and soul in gehenna, He is not talking about that trash heap. The Bible uses the name gehenna for the lake of fire. Also called 'limne pur.'
And what is meant by destruction? Perish (622) Apollumi from apo=away from or wholly + olethros=state of utter ruin<>ollumi=to destroy<>root of apollym (Rev9:11)=destroyer) means to destroy utterly but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to man, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises ever lasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence.
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothing less or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13:42,50)
You just don't get it. Your salvation is dependant on believing in Christ. The work of Christ is not applied to a person until that person makes a decision to believe.
You have just seen in Matthew 10:28 by Jesus' own words that God does destroy souls in the lake of fire. You have been given a detailed definition of what destroyed means. You have no excuse for continuing to deny the fact that the unbeliever is eternally separated from God. None. At all. No excuse. Period.
If you choose to throw God's offer of salvation away, to throw it back in His face, then just before you are sent away into the eternal lake of fire, you will be forced to acknowledge that Christ is indeed Lord. But this has nothing to do with being saved. It is simply a recognition on the part of the unbeliever that he has made a terrible mistake that he is going to pay for through out all eternity. That knowledge will be a part of his torment. The knowledge of what he chose to walk away from.
Dear Mike, do you believe Jesus is Lord? And if you do, what do you think that means? Does it mean in calling Him "Lord" that you are in effect saying you do what He tells you to do?
Now, in the end when all are bowing the knee IN the name of Jesus (Jesus meaning "Saviour") and acclaiming (happily so) that Jesus is Lord, does this not tell you they see Christ not only as their Lord but also their Saviour?
If the group of Philippians 2:8-11 is composed of unbelievers and believers, how can you differentiate between what each group means in what they say and do in this passage?
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy (apolesai) him [Jesus].
Luke 6:9
Then Jesus said to them: I ask YOU men, Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do injury, to save or to destroy(apolesai) a soul?
This is the parallel verse of Mark 3:4
Next he said to them: "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?"
Mark 3:4 has apokteinai a form of apokteinô -to kill, obviously destroy and to kill is synonymous.
Luke 19:47
And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy (apolesai) him [Jesus]
apolesai from apollumi, the same word as in Matthew 10:28, it means physical death here in all instances, the cessation of life.
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy (apolesai) him [Jesus].
Luke 6:9
Then Jesus said to them: I ask YOU men, Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do injury, to save or to destroy(apolesai) a soul?
This is the parallel verse of Mark 3:4
Next he said to them: "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?"
Mark 3:4 has apokteinai a form of apokteinô -to kill, obviously destroy and to kill is synonymous.
Luke 19:47
And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy (apolesai) him [Jesus]
apolesai from apollumi, the same word as in Matthew 10:28, it means physical death here in all instances, the cessation of life.
Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. The soul departs or separates from the body.
The context of Matthew 10:28 is about the destuction of the soul in the lake of fire. The soul cannot be made to cease to exist. It is brought to a state to utter ruin in gehenna or limne pur or lake of fire. Take your pick. They are all the same place.
this is exactly what Plato said, and the serpent...
And? So? But? Therefore?
The Bible recognizes seven categories of death.
1) Spiritual Death - separation from God in time. Rom 5:12, 6:23; 1 Cor. 2:14
2) Physical Death - separation of the soul from the body. Matt 8:22; 2 Cor 5:8
3)Temporal Death - believer out of fellowship with God through sin. The status of being carnal. The believer walking by means of the flesh, instead of the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:14-18; 1 Tim. 5:6
4) Positional Death - position in Adam. Rom 6:6-14; Col. 3:3
5) Second Death - eternal separation from God. Revelation 20:12-15
6) Operational Death - human production (works that are wood, hay, and stubble) as opposed to divine production (gold, silver, and prescious stones) 1 Cor 3:14-15, James 2:26
7) Sexual Death - Rom. 4:17-21, Heb. 11:12; Heb. 11:12
Just as you are physically alive while on earth and yet spiritually dead as an unbeliever, so too is the unbeliever physically alive in his resurrected body in the eternal lake of fire, yet he is in the second death-eternal separation from God.
Sometimes an olive tree is just an olive tree. Just like the words people so easily get hung upon and apply a meaning more than its context, destroy is to destroy, and eternal is eternal, forever and ever, and well.....brimstone is just brimstone and fire is fire.
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