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1Pe 3:19-20
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
and ...
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Yes God sent the flood to destroy the world that then was, and he will resurrect all them who died at that time in the last day to face the purifying fire of his judgments so that they might be reconciled to him at last.
The point is your only representing one side of the coin. Yes God destroys, and he renews as well. ...., which is life and healing and comforting..
Which is my reason for quoting verses that I do. The conclusion of ER is exactly that...." your only representing one side of the coin."
The wicked will not go unaccountable. Unbelief and the unbeliever at the Last Judgement will not enter heaven, as many NT verses that have been quoted by us "fundamentalists" .... again and again. (which I find interesting that that doesn't seem to be remembered)
Which is my reason for quoting verses that I do. The conclusion of ER is exactly that...." your only representing one side of the coin."
The wicked will not go unaccountable. Unbelief and the unbeliever at the Last Judgement will not enter heaven, as many NT verses that have been quoted by us "fundamentalists" .... again and again. (which I find interesting that that doesn't seem to be remembered)
I actually find it amazing how loosely the terms "wicked and sinner" are used by christians, knowing myself i tend to use those words very conservatively and usually in reference to myself, in reverent fear of not bringing condemnation upon myself.
Which is my reason for quoting verses that I do. The conclusion of ER is exactly that...." your only representing one side of the coin."
The wicked will not go unaccountable. Unbelief and the unbeliever at the Last Judgement will not enter heaven, as many NT verses that have been quoted by us "fundamentalists" .... again and again. (which I find interesting that that doesn't seem to be remembered)
See, this is what i am talking about ... We were all at one time sinners and at enmity with God. And he is even now in the process of destroying our old carnal natures and quickening our spiritual natures. You guys lump everyone in the world into this single category of wicked, whether they are decent people(by human standards) or not, the Hitler's and the Gandhi's all in one massive package just because they are not "Christian". And you say they deserve to be tortured in flames for ever ... While i know plenty of greedy, spiritually violent and hateful fundamentalists who according to you are the elect of Christ who deserve to reign with him forever because they chose to believe in him and believe the same way you do. This is just so obviously twisted and backwards in every aspect, that i cant understand how you guys can think so highly of yourselves when your belief systems are so obviously untenable, elitist and arrogant. I understand the indoctrination which fundamentalists are programmed by which is based on bad translations and hundreds of years of traditional interpretations of power hungry men, and i understand this is no easy thing to overcome ... But some of you people don't even have your conscience telling you something is not all right i fundamentalist land. I can only imagine that your consciences are seared to the point of utter insensitivity so that you lack all compassion ... At the same time the many various glaring contradictions of your indoctrination should at least cause you to question your belief system, but you don't. As if logic has nothing to do with your paradigm at all. Its just black and white binary code/theology like a computer program that you dont even have the capacity to debug on you own like a robot with no human cognitive functions where what you believe in is concerned. And many fundamentalists even admit to as much, claiming they don't have the gift of teaching and so must rely on other men's teachings in order to have any belief in Christ at all, completely disregarding the spirit Of Christ as the main source of truth. Dont you realize sin is not only a judeo-Christian concept? Dont you realize many different religions share a similar moral code regarding the reality of sin?
I could go on and on ... but ill stop here. Nothing i say is going to change your mind anyway. Hopefully someone will benefit from my exposing these truths ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-08-2009 at 08:12 PM..
TKC,
Really? Where to start............ Deuteronomy 32:40-43
40 I lift my hand to heaven and declare:
As surely as I live forever,
41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me.
42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders."
43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
Yes we've already established that God's takes vengeance on his enemies in the verses leading up to verse 36. Verse 36 shows that judgment & vengeance is not the end of the story.
See, this is what i am talking about ... We were all at one time sinners and at enmity with God. And he is even now in the process of destroying our old carnal natures and quickening our spiritual natures. You guys lump everyone in the world into this single category of wicked, whether they are decent people(by human standards) or not, the Hitler's and the Gandhi's all in one massive package just because they are not "Christian". And you say they deserve to be tortured in flames for ever ... While i know plenty of greedy, spiritually violent and hateful fundamentalists who according to you are the elect of Christ who deserve to reign with him forever because they chose to believe in him and believe the same way you do. This is just so obviously twisted and backwards in every aspect, that i cant understand how you guys can think so highly of yourselves when your belief systems are so obviously untenable, elitist and arrogant. I understand the indoctrination which fundamentalists are programmed by which is based on bad translations and hundreds of years of traditional interpretations of power hungry men, and i understand this is no easy thing to overcome ... But some of you people don't even have your conscience telling you something is not all right i fundamentalist land. I can only imagine that your consciences are seared to the point of utter insensitivity so that you lack all compassion ... At the same time the many various glaring contradictions of your indoctrination should at least cause you to question your belief system, but you don't. As if logic has nothing to do with your paradigm at all. Its just black and white binary code/theology like a computer program that you dont even have the capacity to debug on you own like a robot with no human cognitive functions where what you believe in is concerned. And many fundamentalists even admit to as much, claiming they don't have the gift of teaching and so must rely on other men's teachings in order to have any belief in Christ at all, completely disregarding the spirit Of Christ as the main source of truth. Dont you realize sin is not only a judeo-Christian concept? Dont you realize many different religions share a similar moral code regarding the reality of sin?
I could go on and on ... but ill stop here. Nothing i say is going to change your mind anyway. Hopefully someone will benefit from my exposing these truths ...
One would think that when the Bible says;
Matthew 25:41 ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment...
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''
Both of which are in the New Testament by the way. One would think that it would be pretty clear to people that God says what He means, and means what He says. John 3:18 ''He who believes in the Son is not condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed.
But univerisalists want to superimpose their sense of what is just, over what God says is just.
God's justice must be vindicated. The demands of His righteousness must be met before any member of the human race can have an eternal relationship with God. God implimented His plan of salvation. He commissioned Christ to take the form of a man, and pay the penalty for man's sins, and therefore removed sin as an issue. He set the condition of salvation on an act of faith in Christ, and set the bounderies for making that choice between birth and death. Hebrews 9:27 For it is appointed unto man to die once, and after this comes judgement.
If this requirement to believe in Christ isn't met, then the justice of God has no choice except to send the unbeliever away into eternal separation from Him. God can not and will not compromise His perfect essence in bringing anyone into His Presence who hasn't conformed to His requirement to simply believe in Christ.
And for this, the universalists call God a monster, a torturer.
If you do not adjust to the justice of God in salvation, then the justice of God will adjust to you in judgment.
God can not and will not compromise His perfect essence in bringing anyone into His Presence who hasn't conformed to His requirement to simply believe in Christ.
Yes, Mike... as I've pointed out... most or all of us believe this. No one enters the kingdom of God apart from repenting and faith in Christ. It's the everlasting part that we disagree with, not that the conditions for entering God's kingdom can be circumvented.
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And for this, the universalists call God a monster, a torturer.
Not God... only your image of God... namely that His mercy ends, that He would continue to inflict pain upon one who repents and seeks God with all his heart...
Quote:
If you do not adjust to the justice of God in salvation, then the justice of God will adjust to you in judgment.
Matthew 25:41 ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment...
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''
Both of which are in the New Testament by the way. One would think that it would be pretty clear to people that God says what He means, and means what He says. John 3:18 ''He who believes in the Son is not condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed.
First of all, like you have always done, you are quoting a mistranslation of scripture ... I will quote a better translation ...
Matthew 25:41 & 46
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; ... 46) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Matthew 10:28
And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
The only thing that is clear is that most English translations which are based on the Latin Vulgate are mistranslations of the original Greek.
Second ... Matthew 10:28 is referring to the destruction that would come upon Israel in 70 ad ... As Gehenna during the time of Christ was a trash pit which was perpetually ablaze. At the time of the destruction of Israel in ad 70, many Israelistes were slaughtered and their dead bodies were literally thrown into Gehenna at that time. The destruction of the souls in that verse refers to the age-during judgment that these people suffer, and not to eternal torment ...
Quote:
But univerisalists want to superimpose their sense of what is just, over what God says is just.
We superimpose nothing, we only reveal the true message of Gods plan and purpose in the ages, and in the process we reveal the tricks and traps that orthodox Catholics and fundamentalists have fallen prey to such as the bad interpretations of scriptures which are based on mistranslations of the original texts. The FACT that the early eastern native Greek speaking churches taught universal reconciliation(apocatastsis) is proof that in the times of Christ the words aion and its adjective forms aionios and aionion were not understood to mean eternal or everlasting. It was only the western Latin speaking churches, who did not speak Greek as their native tongue who were under the theological traditions of pagan Rome more than a century after the times of the apostles, who were misled into believeing that the words aion and its adjective forms aionios and aionion meant eternal or everlasting.
Quote:
God's justice must be vindicated. The demands of His righteousness must be met before any member of the human race can have an eternal relationship with God. God implimented His plan of salvation. He commissioned Christ to take the form of a man, and pay the penalty for man's sins, and therefore removed sin as an issue. He set the condition of salvation on an act of faith in Christ, and set the bounderies for making that choice between birth and death. Hebrews 9:27 For it is appointed unto man to die once, and after this comes judgement.
Nowhere in the scripture does it say you have to chose to believe in Christ before you die in order to be saved. That is an outright deception. AS a matter of fact the bible says that the gospel is preached to the dead so that though they are judged in the flesh as unto men, they might live in the spirit as unto God.
1Pe 4:6
for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit.
Gods Justice was vindicated in Christ. And every time a person dies it is vindicated, as the wages of sin is death. But the fiery judgments of God which shall try the wicked are not the wages of sin, they are the means by which God finally saves the ones who are so judged.
1Cr 3:15
if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.
Quote:
If this requirement to believe in Christ isn't met, then the justice of God has no choice except to send the unbeliever away into eternal separation from Him. God can not and will not compromise His perfect essence in bringing anyone into His Presence who hasn't conformed to His requirement to simply believe in Christ.
One day everyone will bow before Christ and worship him and sing praises to his name. All flesh will turn unto God and come to repentance.
Psa 65:2
Hearer of prayer, to Thee all flesh cometh.
Psa 136:25
Giving food to all flesh, For to the age [is] His kindness.
Psa 145:21
The praise of Jehovah my mouth speaketh, And all flesh doth bless His holy name, To the age and for ever!
Isa 66:23
And it hath been from month to month, And from sabbath to sabbath, Come do all flesh to bow themselves before Me, Said Jehovah.
Luk 3:6
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Psa 22:27
Remember and return unto Jehovah, Do all ends of the earth, And before Thee bow themselves, Do all families of the nations,
Isa 45:23
By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
Rom 14:11
for it hath been written, `I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;'
Phl 2:11
and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Psa 67:4
Rejoice and sing do nations, For Thou judgest peoples uprightly, And peoples on earth comfortest. Selah.
Psa 66:4
All the earth do bow to Thee, They sing praise to Thee, they praise Thy name.' Selah.
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
In that day it will be fulfilled what the lord has said ...
Rev 21:5
And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and stedfast;'
Jhn 12:32
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.
Quote:
If you do not adjust to the justice of God in salvation, then the justice of God will adjust to you in judgment.
Indeed, and so after they are so adjusted(purified by fire), then shall they be reconciled to God and no longer shall there be death, or any curse on any thing, nor shall there be any more suffering ... And God shall wipe away all tears for all faces, And God shall be all and in all ...
Where you have it wrong is that salvation is from eternal torment. The fact is salvation is from death. And Gods judgments are not for eternal torment, but to purify the wicked so that they might live according to God in the spirit.
Amen and Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-08-2009 at 11:41 PM..
Yes, Mike... as I've pointed out... most or all of us believe this. No one enters the kingdom of God apart from repenting and faith in Christ. It's the everlasting part that we disagree with, not that the conditions for entering God's kingdom can be circumvented.
Not God... only your image of God... namely that His mercy ends, that He would continue to inflict pain upon one who repents and seeks God with all his heart...
Until you adjust.
You absolutely just cannot comprehend, you just can't grasp the simple fact that those passages that tell you that the unbeliever goes into the lake of fire, mean precisely that. So obvious and clearly stated as they are, and you just can't get it. Universalists ignore, and twist, and redefine the scriptures so that they may hold to their viewpoint.
You just refuse to accept the fact that the same Jesus Christ that came into the world the first time as the Savior, comes into the world the second time as the righteous Judge who sits on the Great White Throne and pronounes eternal condemnation on those who rejected His saving work on the Cross. The Bible says it, and you reject it. And there it is.
You absolutely just cannot comprehend, you just can't grasp the simple fact that those passages that tell you that the unbeliever goes into the lake of fire, mean precisely that.
Zephenia 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them.
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You just refuse to accept the fact that the same Jesus Christ that came into the world the first time as the Savior, comes into the world the second time as the righteous Judge...
Not true... I believe Jesus is going to come and judge the earth... Christ will not be showing favor to the wicked at that time...
"...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD."
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...who sits on the Great White Throne and pronounes eternal condemnation on those who rejected His saving work on the Cross. The Bible says it, and you reject it. And there it is.
Right, it's the EVERLASTING condemation part I reject. I believe God's mercy endures through the ages... so your "too late" part I reject.
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