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Yes the Love of the Holy Spirit is very compelling to man. Richard I am not saying that you are blind by posting the scripture below so please don't take it the wrong way. I simpy love this scripture... I am amazed by the fact that God's kindness leads us to repentance.. Beautiful!!!
Romans 2:4 (Amplified Bible)
4) Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?
I know that scripture and Romans is a letter to the Christians in Rome. We know he is talking to Christians because of how he opens the letter in Romans 1:1...so, in 2:4 he is speaking to Christians and not to non-beleivers...
Rom 2:1 Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man--every one who is judging--for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,
Rom 2:2 and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.
Rom 2:3 And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? --not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation!
Rom 2:5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;
Rom 2:8 and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek;
Rom 2:10 and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
It does say indignation and wrath...not condemnation...IOW God will tend to His own...
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I know that scripture and Romans is a letter to the Christians in Rome. We know he is talking to Christians because of how he opens the letter in Romans 1:1...so, in 2:4 he is speaking to Christians and not to non-beleivers...
Rom 2:1 Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man--every one who is judging--for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,
Rom 2:2 and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.
Rom 2:3 And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? --not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation!
Rom 2:5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;
Rom 2:8 and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek;
Rom 2:10 and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
It does say indignation and wrath...not condemnation...IOW God will tend to His own...
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I believe that Paul is actually addressing the religious moralist or the one's who think they have no sin. Self-righteousness exists because of two deadly errors.
1) Minimizing God's moral standard by emphasizing the externals or "works". Once again, out of balance belief.
2) Underestimating the depth of ones own sinfulness.
I have quoted scripture that shows that we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God again and again on this forum. We have to "work out" our own salvation with fear and trembling until the day of Christ.
I am not sure Richard so please forgive me if I have misunderstood you but if you are referring to me with this post I am by no means saying I am above anyone else, I do not sin, or I am perfect. In fact, I admit I am probably the biggest sinner on this forum and I need Jesus's forgiveness on a daily basis.
I believe that Paul is actually addressing the religious moralist or the one's who think they have no sin. Self-righteousness exists because of two deadly errors.
1) Minimizing God's moral standard by emphasizing the externals or "works". Once again, out of balance belief.
2) Underestimating the depth of ones own sinfulness.
I have quoted scripture that shows that we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God again and again on this forum. We have to "work out" our own salvation with fear and trembling until the day of Christ.
I am not sure Richard so please forgive me if I have misunderstood you but if you are referring to me with this post I am by no means saying I am above anyone else, I do not sin, or I am perfect. In fact, I admit I am probably the biggest sinner on this forum and I need Jesus's forgiveness on a daily basis.
Christ paid for all your sins already...That is why you are righteous in God's eyes...You do not need His forgiveness on a daily basis...you have already been forgiven and repented...turned from your life of unbelief and now you are spending the rest of your life being sanctified by God to one day being perfect, but not in this life...And as form Romans you have to read it in its entirety to understand what he is getting accross...
If you read chaps 1 and 2 carefully you will see that he is talkig to believers...
Christ paid for all your sins already...That is why you are righteous in God's eyes...You do not need His forgiveness on a daily basis...you have already been forgiven and repented...turned from your life of unbelief and now you are spending the rest of your life being sanctified by God to one day being perfect, but not in this life...And as form Romans you have to read it in its entirety to understand what he is getting accross...
If you read chaps 1 and 2 carefully you will see that he is talkig to believers...
Yes, but he is talking to believers that are judging and appearing to be self-righteous and above sin.
Christ said He came to save the Lost Sheep of Israel, that is a very limiting statement....the limitation is implied in scripture...scripture is made up of direct statements and implied reasoning...
Christ's came to His own, but they did not receive Him. I don't get how you get limited atonement from it. Did Christ die only for those who rejected Him?
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,..
The Bible does not teach that there was a group for whom the atonement was not extended. In fact, the Bible says that the UNBELIEF is the only sin that sends people to hell.
Unbelief is a sin of NOT believing that Christ died for one's sins, correct?
So, a person X who never believes in Christ will be condemned for not believing in Christ.
Yet, according to Calvinism, Christ never died for person X.
So, why would Christ condemn that person for not believing that He died for them, when that person was never covered by Christ's blood?
Nope, faith eventually results in obedience... because the renewal of the Word of God in one's life results in obedience and fruit..
Go back and read the thread on obedience...
You are misunderstanding what he is teaching.. He is teaching about the saving faith that saves and the one that leads to "walking" in Christ. The Christian teaching that he is teaching is about spiritual growth... The Bible speaks about different measures of faith...
MacArthur does not simply teach that faith *results* in obedience, he clearly states that absolute commitment to obedience is required for one to enter heaven.
But they were promoting a view of the gospel that, from a biblical perspective, seemed seriously flawed. They insisted there is no place in the gospel for the proclamation of Jesus' lordship. They said those who call unbelievers to surrender to Christ's authority are preaching a gospel of works. They taught that repentance is a false addition to the gospel message. They objected to any kind of evangelism that employed the language of denying oneself, taking up a cross, and following Christ (cf. Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23). They declared that devotion to Christ, love for Him, and obedience to His commands are all matters that pertain to discipleship rather than saving faith. Faith, they said, is merely the acceptance of salvation as a free and unconditional gift--and they portrayed discipleship as a second-level commitment. Therefore, according to their view, the gospel presents Jesus as Savior only, not as Lord.
For MacArthur, the Gospel INCLUDES
-denying oneself,
-taking up a cross,
-following Christ and obedience to His commans
-repentance (from all sins)
And this is not a gospel of works?
How can one who listens to MacArthur really know when they have reached a point salvation?
Last edited by BigV; 01-11-2010 at 08:04 AM..
Reason: provided link to the quote
For MacArthur, the Gospel INCLUDES
-denying oneself,
-taking up a cross,
-following Christ and obedience to His commans
-repentance (from all sins)
Sounds like a different Gospel to me. Let's look at the Gospel that Paul proclaimed (given to Him by revelation from Jesus) and see if MacArthur is correct:
1Co 15:1 But, brothers, I reveal to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand,
1Co 15:2 by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you in the first place what I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures,
Let's see if the Gospel includes what John MacArthur claims a sinner must do to be saved:
Denying one self: Nope. Not there. The only person that denied himself in the Gospel was Jesus. And Jesus did that for us, the sinner.
Taking up the cross: Don't see the sinner doing that in the Gospel. However, Jesus took up the cross and did that for us too, the sinner.
Following Christ and His Commands: Not there either. The only thing the sinner is said to have done in the Gospel is, well, be a sinner.
Repentance from all sins: Not even a word about repentance on the sinners part. The Gospel says that Jesus died for us while we were His enemy (being unrepented sinners). These sinners were not following Christ and His commands. And Jesus died for them and God said they are justified:
Rom 5:8 but God commends His love to us in this, that we being yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;
Further more, the sinner is said to be Justified by Christ alone in the Gospel, not by anything the sinner does:
Rom 4:25 who was delivered because of our deviations, and was raised because of our justification.
My Conclusions: John MacArthur has completely turned the tables and invented a new gospel...perhaps his own gospel...LOL He has made the sinner (and no doubt himself) his very own savior...LOL
If this be so, I would conclude he is not a Christian, nor a believer in Christ. Not only, but rather all the worse for spreading a false gospel. He would be more than a heretic. He would be accursed:
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel beside what you received, let him be accursed.
Yes, but he is talking to believers that are judging and appearing to be self-righteous and above sin.
Let's See what's going on:
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God--
Rom 1:2 which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings--
In case you didn't know in Jewish custom it is proper to give the inheritence to the first born and Jesus was mary's first born but not Joseph's for Christ was the son of God...but Joseph adopted Christ and in Jewish customs even if a child is adopted it is considered to be your blood so Christ was in essence Joseph's first born and Joseph, if you trace his line back is a decendant of david and also if you trace Mary's line back you will find that she also is a decendant of David, so according to Jewish Law regarding lineage, Christ had the right to the throne of David as King...I've read arguements of ignorant people that Christ could not have been King because he had to be of the Royal blood line from David to claim the throne, but, Paul puts that to rest below:
Rom 1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
Rom 1:5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;
Here he is speaking to the receioients of his letter and calling them what?
Rom 1:6 among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ;
Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rom 1:8 first, indeed, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world;
Rom 1:9 for God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the good news of His Son, how unceasingly I make mention of you,
Rom 1:10 always in my prayers beseeching, if by any means now at length I shall have a prosperous journey, by the will of God, to come unto you,
Rom 1:11 for I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, that ye may be established;
He would not have said the above to non-believers or to Christians that are lost because of their hypocrasy.
Rom 1:12 and that is, that I may be comforted together among you, through the faith in one another, both yours and mine.
Rom 1:13 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that many times I did purpose to come unto you--and was hindered till the present time--that some fruit I might have also among you, even as also among the other nations.
Rom 1:14 Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to thoughtless, I am a debtor,
Rom 1:15 so, as much as in me is, I am ready also to you who are in Rome to proclaim good news,
Rom 1:16 for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
And the righteous shall live by what?...Faith, IOW, if God tells you He will do something believe it as if it were already done:
Rom 1:17 For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,'
Here he is speaking to Believers about non-believers, for Christian would not hold down the Truth in unrighteousness:
Rom 1:18 for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.
Here it is saying that depp down man knows there is a Creator because of the complexity of what they see around them:
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:21 because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
Rom 1:22 professing to be wise, they were made fools,
Here he talking of Idoltry worshipping the things created rather than the creator so God gave them over to a reprobate mind:
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
Rom 1:25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.
Rom 1:26 Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
Rom 1:27 and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Even the worst Christian Knows and feels something if they do things like this and God tells the believer that He will never leave them nor forsake them and Paul also says that nothing can seperate us from God, If a true believer falls Christ will pick Him back up so this is not talking about a believer but a non-believer:
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practising such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.
The ones Paul was addressing were the Judaisers that were telling Believers that faith was not enough to go to heaven that they must couple it with circumcision and obeying the Law, which Christ already fullilled and believers are no longer under:
Rom 2:1 Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man--every one who is judging--for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,
Rom 2:2 and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.
Rom 2:3 And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? --not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation!
Rom 2:5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;
Rom 2:8 and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek;
Rom 2:10 and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no acceptance of faces with God,
Rom 2:12 for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,
Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --
Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.
Rom 2:17 Lo, thou art named a Jew, and dost rest upon the law, and dost boast in God,
Rom 2:18 and dost know the will, and dost approve the distinctions, being instructed out of the law,
Rom 2:19 and hast confidence that thou thyself art a leader of blind ones, a light of those in darkness,
Rom 2:20 an instructor of foolish ones, a teacher of babes, having the form of the knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou, then, who art teaching another, thyself dost thou not teach?
Rom 2:22 thou who art preaching not to steal, dost thou steal? thou who art saying not to commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou who art abhorring the idols, dost thou rob temples?
Rom 2:23 thou who in the law dost boast, through the transgression of the law God dost thou dishonour?
Rom 2:24 for the name of God because of you is evil spoken of among the nations, according as it hath been written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision, indeed, doth profit, if law thou mayest practise, but if a transgressor of law thou mayest be, thy circumcision hath become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 If, therefore the uncircumcision the righteousness of the law may keep, shall not his uncircumcision for circumcision be reckoned?
Rom 2:27 and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, art a transgressor of law.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
One must understand that There is a difference between temporal judgements and eternal judgements in scripture...Ananias and Saphira were temporal Judgements, they did not lose their Salvation but they did lose their physical lives for lieing to the Holy Spirit. A non-believer that dies in his sins is subject to the eternal judgement...
Christ's came to His own, but they did not receive Him. I don't get how you get limited atonement from it. Did Christ die only for those who rejected Him?
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,..
The Bible does not teach that there was a group for whom the atonement was not extended. In fact, the Bible says that the UNBELIEF is the only sin that sends people to hell.
Unbelief is a sin of NOT believing that Christ died for one's sins, correct?
So, a person X who never believes in Christ will be condemned for not believing in Christ.
Yet, according to Calvinism, Christ never died for person X.
So, why would Christ condemn that person for not believing that He died for them, when that person was never covered by Christ's blood?
That is exactly the point Paul was making in Romans:
Rom 9:15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Rom 9:17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh--`For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
There is a point being made here:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call--us--
Rom 9:24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,
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Richard I am not saying that you are blind by posting the scripture below so please don't take it the wrong way. I simpy love this scripture... I am amazed by the fact that God's kindness leads us to repentance.. Beautiful!!!
