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Old 11-12-2009, 04:01 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,325,930 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I don'r really care what Robbins has to say about Sproul. I will let Sproul speak for himself. I don't agree with everything RC teaches either. A totally wrong way to understand the bible is to take one word and use it to try to disprove what the mass of scripture is clearly teaching. In absolutely no way does a limited atonement limit limit the power of God. Nor do they in any way deny the gospel. I will issue a challenge to you. You list the scriptures that clearly teach that atonement is unlimited, there for all to accept or reject out of their human will and I will list the scriptures that very clearly prove that the atonment of Christ is always effectual because it's applied to His people. A people that God CHOOSE before the foundation of the world. I will not have any trouble finding them because they are there in black and white by the hundreds. I'll put this up against one word that is midunderstood any time.
Actually, like you, I'm not concerned what Robbin's has to say about Sproul. You spoke highly of Sproul, so I thought you would like to read an article on how he defines "faith". I'm glad you and I both agree that Sproul's faith is not necessarily faith in the Gospel . I'm also not challenging you to agree with me on the atonement. But you've asked, so here are my thoughts.

All of the scriptures that speak of the atonement being for a select group are true, and there are many, as you've said. But the truth of that fact does not limit, or diminish the other groups, or take away from the truth of the other groups also being included. For example: The scriptures speak of Christ as being the Savior of Israel:

Act 13:23 Of the seed of this one, according to promise, God raised up to Israel a Savior, Jesus;

But what about the Greeks? Yes, Greeks too:

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue on every sabbath persuading both Jews and Greeks.

But what about other nations? Yes, those too, even to the ends of the earth:

Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, "I have set You for a Light of nations, that You be for salvation to the end of the earth."

Reformed theology teaches that only some individuals, out of those groups, will be saved. I believe scripture says otherwise. The following scriptures will illustrate who, among those groups, will be saved.

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.

1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time,

Rom 5:18 So then, as through one deviation it was toward all men to condemnation, so also through one righteous act toward all men to justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.

1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
1Co 15:24 Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

Col 1:20 and through Him making peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile all things to Himself; through Him, whether the things on the earth, or the things in the heavens.

And there are many more, but those should serve as an example.

If those scriptures actually mean "some", or something out of those groups, why use the term all? There is a Greek word meaning "some" or something. It's used here in our translations:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will not their unbelief nullify the faith of God?
Rom 3:4 Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; even as it has been written, "That You should be justified in Your words, and will overcome in Your being judged."

But even those "some", in disobedience (unbelief) obtain mercy, that God may show mercy to all:

Rom 11:30 For as you then also disobeyed God, but now have obtained mercy by the disobedience of these,
Rom 11:31 so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.

And why is this?

Rom 11:36 Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

No one is saved by their own will or desire, but rather Gods:

Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

If you feel strongly that I'm wrong, then by all means, proclaim a limited atonement. For me, I'll take the gospel to the world, as Jesus said:

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, Going into all the world, preach the gospel to all the creation.

And the reason I can do so, without reservation, is because I believe it is applicable to all:

1Ti 1:15 Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;

Anyway, it's what I believe . If we should disagree on this, than carry on. We're both laborers for Christ, are we not?
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:57 PM
 
Location: US
10,068 posts, read 3,743,131 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Let's deal with John MacArthur scripturally. He does not emphasize the importance of Jesus' shed blood, only His death; that is not scriptural. The devil would like nothing more than to down play the power in the blood of Jesus.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins...
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:15 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,558,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins...
That is true but that rumour going around that Macarthur doesn't believe in the blood is FALSE
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:51 AM
 
1,491 posts, read 897,186 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Do you not believe in the omnipotence of God? I do and because He is ALL POWERFUL What ever He desires comes to pass. If you believe the "ALL" in this scripture means all of humanity, and we know that just a small number of humanity is saved then this is a pretty weak innefectual God who's desires can be thwarted by the will of fallen sinful Man.
We don't know that just a small number will be saved. The number saved will be as the sands of the sea.
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:43 AM
 
Location: US
10,068 posts, read 3,743,131 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Straining to understand scripture-"works from salvation"? Are you Catholic? because if you are then that explains it

John Macarthur only follows scripture. Too many want to put their one sided view in scripture. Macarthur is a Calvinist but he is the first to admit that even though God does the saving somehow, somewhere our will is responsible for our salvation; that we still choose as well much to the chagrin of many Calvinists who adamantly reject his view.

I admire men of God like him.
From our point of view, we DO choose or Reject...But from God's point of view it is He who does the choosing or rejecting and that is what scripture says throughout...
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:21 PM
 
Location: US
10,068 posts, read 3,743,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Don't agree....the bible says both...salvation is of God but our works are evidenced that we are saved. "faith without works is dead"
I agree, it goes along with "you shall know them by there fruits"...
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:25 PM
 
Location: US
10,068 posts, read 3,743,131 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
If our will is responsible for our salvation, how do you read Joh 1:13?

Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

Salvation is of Jehovah. Always has been, is today, and always will be.

IMO, John MacArthur needs to come to a saving knowledge of the Gospel, and to understand what Jesus' death on the cross actually accomplished for him.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

And i believe that mercy is the Grace of God in the regenerateing of the spirit of man unto his belief, faith and salvation...
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:35 PM
 
Location: US
10,068 posts, read 3,743,131 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I can't how can I argue scripture when interpreted correctly? but how do you explain (Roman 10:9-10)

9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

how about John 3:16....that whoever BELIEVES
It is a comparitive statement...Knowing them by there fruits?... it says "whosoever" not "if"...there is a difference here in these two words and it makes a big difference in the meaning. That is the problem with most people who read those words, they do not realize that "IF" and "WHOSOEVER" are not synonamous words, they are different and there fore make the meanings different...If involves a decision and whosoever involves recognition...
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:39 PM
 
Location: US
10,068 posts, read 3,743,131 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Works may be the evidence to man that someone has faith, but they do not save.

It is God that searches the heart, he does not need to see works of men to justify the works of His Son. Christ said:

Mat 7:20 Then surely from their fruits you shall know them.

Jas 2:17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.

But how so?

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.

Man needs to see works, or fruit, to make a human judgment about a person's faith and testimony. God does not.
You are right on target with that...
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 3,142,104 times
Reputation: 593
I dont see where MacArthur has made any false statements. According to the bible Haggard cannot be a pastor, but he can still serve God in other ways.
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