Man of God John Macarthur dealing with Ted Haggard scripturally (believing, scripture)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't know about all of that - the son could be looking for his dad at the same time - and from his perspective, he found his dad.
-----------------------------------------------
2 Thess. 2:10-12 - and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
These are people who will/did not believe.
2 Thess. 2:13-14 - But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
These did believe. God chose. Faith (belief) is one of the conduits. The gospel is one of the conduits through which we are called.
The word is clear there is none that seek after God.Romans 3 :11
The truth is if you are lost you are lost , we didn't just take a few wrong turns , and it took our God in His love to seek and save us who were lost.
I am not disputing the Romans 3:11 aspect of man can't seek God. I am saying the "process" to salvation includes both God's will and our will. It is not an "either...or" argument - both are included. And the "process" is started w/ God's will.
First - all of Scripture must be taken into account to prove a doctrine. Matt. 25:46 refers to eternal life and eternal punishment. Mark 3:28-29 refers to an eternal sin. Rev. 20:10 says that the devil and those with him will suffer forever and ever. So these verses provide an opposite viewpoint from what you offer regarding 1 Tim. 2:3-4.
Second - God's desires are not always met. Consider 1 Thess. 4 - God's will is our sanctification, that we abstain from sexual immorality. Obviously - that is not happening even though it is God's will. God never wants anyone to sin - but it does. God wanted Israel to turn back to Him - they didn't. I think 1 Tim. 2 falls into that same category - He wants all to be saved, but it won't happen.
So is God in control or not?
Yes.
God sent Moses to get Pharaoh to let his people go (Ex. 8) - even though God had said He would harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex. 4).
Peter says that Jesus died according to God's plan while at the same time those who put Him to death were guilty (Acts 2:23).
God also has kept some from sinning.
God kept Abimelech from sinning against Abraham and Sarah (Gen. 20).
The point is God is in control. He would like everyone to be saved and not to sin at all - but it is not the case. Rom 9:22-23. For those not saved, they are also fulfilling God's purpose.
I believe Mark 3:28-29 also.
Christ is the mediator between "man" and God, not angels and God.
Our sanctification will be complete.
I don't deny God is in control. That's why I believe in 1 Tim 2:3-4. If God was not in control, you might be right, he's will could be resisted. But this is not the case.
Let's read Romans 9:22-23:
Rom 9:22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
I've underlined the word "if" in ver. 22. Paul does not say God desires to demonstrate His wrath, but rather "if" he so desired. But we know that God does not desire to do so. Paul states, without using the qualifier "if", that God desires all men to be saved:
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
I am not disputing the Romans 3:11 aspect of man can't seek God. I am saying the "process" to salvation includes both God's will and our will. It is not an "either...or" argument - both are included. And the "process" is started w/ God's will.
Let's just go back a few posts to where we first started debating,you basically said God's love is for those in Christ , when in fact by the scriptures i explained this is not so ,it's for all of mankind regardless of whether you think they are in Christ are not.
Well the scriptures tells us He's the Author and Finisher of our faith . It's God that works in you both to will and to do. He that started a good work in you will complete it.It the goodness of God that causes/leads a man to repent.
I would pretty much say Salvation begins and ends with God.
There is 2 obvious things that has come out of the Ted Haggard saga, it's revealed what's in our hearts through judging and condemning him and the mercy grace and love and the healing power of God to someone who had fallen that he was ruined.
Christ is the mediator between "man" and God, not angels and God.
Our sanctification will be complete.
I don't deny God is in control. That's why I believe in 1 Tim 2:3-4. If God was not in control, you might be right, he's will could be resisted. But this is not the case.
Let's read Romans 9:22-23:
Rom 9:22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
I've underlined the word "if" in ver. 22. Paul does not say God desires to demonstrate His wrath, but rather "if" he so desired. But we know that God does not desire to do so. Paul states, without using the qualifier "if", that God desires all men to be saved:
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
Case closed and dismissed my friend. Praise God!
Do you not believe in the omnipotence of God? I do and because He is ALL POWERFUL What ever He desires comes to pass. If you believe the "ALL" in this scripture means all of humanity, and we know that just a small number of humanity is saved then this is a pretty weak innefectual God who's desires can be thwarted by the will of fallen sinful Man. This is not the picture of an all powerful,infallable,all knowing God. He who knows the end from the beginning.
The word all as used in the bible has caused a lot of misunderstanding and has lead many believers astray. All refers to all types of people and that God does not choose His elect from any single group of people.
We must always understand the scriptures from what we know for sure from the bible. We know for absolute truth that God is Almighty. Therefore we cannot have a correct belief about the things of God if we have an understanding by our reading of the word that shows God to be anything but. I always like an example of this as taught by R.C. Sproul who is one of my favorite Theologins.
"If there is one single molecule in the the entire universe that is running around outside of Gods control. Then this molecule could concievabely undo all of God's plans for His universe."
It pains me to think that any Christian could think that the Lord Jesus Christ died in vain. If his death was for everyone then His sacrifice would be far from the perfect sacrifice that we know it is. His sacrifice is effectual for ALL, there is that word all, Who God has chosen from eternity.
There are many things about God that we as fallen sinful people do not like to face. We often have this human idea of fairness that we would like to think God has also. God's ways are not our ways. What is the fairness of God is that all human kind get Justice from Him. This is what he has promised. Out of this mass of humanity He a chosen a few by His own sovereign will, a special people that he takes unto himself and He grants to them Grace. His special favour is upon them. Is this just? It is because His peoples sins have been paid for in full.
AlabamaStorm - a quick question - if there is no wrath, from what are we saved?
I will deal w/ Rom. 9 in a little while.
I believe God has wrath and that He does display it (too many versus to list, so I'll give a few examples):
Mat 3:7 And having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming about his baptism, he said to them, `Brood of vipers! who did shew you to flee from the coming wrath?
Joh 3:36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,
Saul too, as well as myself, were under the wrath of God prior to believing the Gospel.
I think our differences are that I believe that Christ saves from wrath (as I know you do also) and that this salvation is for all:
Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
The issue of God's wrath is time dependent, as is His saving work. Christ died 2,000 years ago. However, we experience it's grace and benefits in God's appointed time. We were not born believers, at least I was not, and consequently God's wrath remained on me in unbelief, in time, until faith came, in time. However I know and believe that eventually, His grace will prevail for all, in time:
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
Do you not believe in the omnipotence of God? I do and because He is ALL POWERFUL What ever He desires comes to pass. If you believe the "ALL" in this scripture means all of humanity, and we know that just a small number of humanity is saved then this is a pretty weak innefectual God who's desires can be thwarted by the will of fallen sinful Man. This is not the picture of an all powerful,infallable,all knowing God. He who knows the end from the beginning.
The word all as used in the bible has caused a lot of misunderstanding and has lead many believers astray. All refers to all types of people and that God does not choose His elect from any single group of people.
We must always understand the scriptures from what we know for sure from the bible. We know for absolute truth that God is Almighty. Therefore we cannot have a correct belief about the things of God if we have an understanding by our reading of the word that shows God to be anything but. I always like an example of this as taught by R.C. Sproul who is one of my favorite Theologins.
"If there is one single molecule in the the entire universe that is running around outside of Gods control. Then this molecule could concievabely undo all of God's plans for His universe."
It pains me to think that any Christian could think that the Lord Jesus Christ died in vain. If his death was for everyone then His sacrifice would be far from the perfect sacrifice that we know it is. His sacrifice is effectual for ALL, there is that word all, Who God has chosen from eternity.
There are many things about God that we as fallen sinful people do not like to face. We often have this human idea of fairness that we would like to think God has also. God's ways are not our ways. What is the fairness of God is that all human kind get Justice from Him. This is what he has promised. Out of this mass of humanity He a chosen a few by His own sovereign will, a special people that he takes unto himself and He grants to them Grace. His special favour is upon them. Is this just? It is because His peoples sins have been paid for in full.
That's our difference. You do not believe that "all" means "all". A limited atonement, in application (Calvin) or it's effectualness (Arminius) is just that, limited. They both limit the power of God. They both deny the good news of the Gospel.
I've read Calvin, Gill, Pink, Bunyan, Warfield, Hodge (both brothers), Hoeksema, Boetiner, etc., and all the other reformers you can list, and then some. Because their theology on the atonement does not agree with the word "all" used in scripture, they have a dilemma. And that's when they all, in reformed harmony, start blowing smoke. The word "all" in scripture contradicts the teachings of man. But that's their problem, not mine.
As for RC Sproul, he needs to read the Gospel and believe it. Here is an article on his "theology" you say you admire so much:
Actually, I do agree with most, if not all reformed theology when discussing it's basic precepts. Where I part company is on it's applicability. Reformed theology says "some" will be saved. I say "all" will be saved as stated in scripture.
My differences are not in the quality of the atonement (as it is between Calvin and Arminius), but rather quantity, it's universal application. Arminius believed in a universal atonement that does not actually save. Calvin held to a limited atonement that does save. I believe in a universal atonement that does save.
I believe scripture reveals the final and total reconciliation of all things back to God, in time. Most reformers do not. That is where our differences are.
That's our difference. You do not believe that "all" means "all". A limited atonement, in application (Calvin) or it's effectualness (Arminius) is just that, limited. They both limit the power of God. They both deny the good news of the Gospel.
I've read Calvin, Gill, Pink, Bunyan, Warfield, Hodge (both brothers), Hoeksema, Boetiner, etc., and all the other reformers you can list, and then some. Because their theology on the atonement does not agree with the word "all" used in scripture, they have a dilemma. And that's when they all, in reformed harmony, start blowing smoke. The word "all" in scripture contradicts the teachings of man. But that's their problem, not mine.
As for RC Sproul, he needs to read the Gospel and believe it. Here is an article on his "theology" you say you admire so much:
I don'r really care what Robbins has to say about Sproul. I will let Sproul speak for himself. I don't agree with everything RC teaches either. A totally wrong way to understand the bible is to take one word and use it to try to disprove what the mass of scripture is clearly teaching. In absolutely no way does a limited atonement limit limit the power of God. Nor do they in any way deny the gospel. I will issue a challenge to you. You list the scriptures that clearly teach that atonement is unlimited, there for all to accept or reject out of their human will and I will list the scriptures that very clearly prove that the atonment of Christ is always effectual because it's applied to His people. A people that God CHOOSE before the foundation of the world. I will not have any trouble finding them because they are there in black and white by the hundreds. I'll put this up against one word that is midunderstood any time.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
