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Old 11-14-2009, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,475,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Here are my thoughts on Jon 10:34-37:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)
Joh 10:36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say--Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
Joh 10:37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;
Joh 10:38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me is the Father, and I in Him.'

Jesus was telling the scribes that they are "gods" - or judges - concerning the law, and have been given this authority, by God. Should these judges not believe Jesus' words, they are to judge Him by Jehovah's standards:

Lev 19:15 You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment; you shall not respect the person of the poor, nor favor the person of the mighty; but in righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.

In so judging, Jesus tells them that the divine miracles He performs (raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, etc.) will testify to His claim as the Son of God:

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me?

Here are some of the works that Jesus showed the Jews:

Mat 11:4 And Jesus answering said to them, `Having gone, declare to John the things that ye hear and see,
Mat 11:5 blind receive sight, and lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and deaf hear, dead are raised, and poor have good news proclaimed,

The Jews understood Jesus' claim correctly, but they would not judge correctly, even though the works that Jesus performed gave clear testimony to His claims. This is why Jesus chastised them. Not only did these judges not believe His claims, but they refused to judge righteously, given the evidence before them. Consequently, these unrighteous judges tried harder to stop Him:

Joh 10:39 Therefore were they seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,
I totally agree with you here.. Jesus is saying that they don't recognize that he speaks from God because they don't know him. This is insulting to them because they are supposed to know him in order to teach others. Therefore Jesus is tearing apart their authority in the word which they have devoted their lives to understanding. He is not saying he is God he is saying that in order for them to receive his teaching they must first understand God's ways. This is what they lack.. they teach the precepts of man rather than the precepts of God. They have fallen away. This angered them. They called him a false prophet and could in no way know God more than they did.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,627,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet the kjvonly.org website agrees that it is not found in the original manuscripts that we are privy to.. you may continue in your ignorance or you can research for yourself..but as for proving anything using that verse even supporters of the KJV will tell you that verse is not valid.

Yet the verses you reference say nothing of the sort.. you interject that rhetoric.

Then Christ is the son of God and the christian is the son of God making them brothers not father and son. You are stating that Christ then becomes the christian's father not his brother...

It is clear here that Jesus is resurrected at this time and is full of the divine properties of God.. This cannot apply to his life on earth now can it?

Yes so you see that Jesus' relationship with the father can also be our relationship with the father .. therefore using your logic.. we are also God.

Again these are your thoughts and are not shown in scripture. Jesus prays for several different groups of people in John 17.. not just the "true christians."

True.. and that is the same as being a Son of God.. the capital "S" does not imply that Jesus is God himself nor does the lack of the captal "s" imply that we as sons of God are not God himself.




Thanks for the clarification there. It is hard to understand where you are going with something when you only show the verse and nothing else because there have been several points made in this thread.
The only "point" that need be made in this thread is this:

Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Jesus Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them...selah.

Good day.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,475,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The group is up early this morning...LOL

Here are a few articles I found concerning the terms "logos" and "rhema" that was discussed yesterday and it makes for some good reading. A little long in the tooth, but the articles are short:

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/278-The_Logos_Clark.pdf (broken link)

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/021a-Logology.pdf (broken link)


Alabama
Mississippi St.
I think the first one is more of a condemnational nature than the second one so I kinda just skimmed over the first. The second however brings up several good points. The only problem I see is that it is said by the author that the words of Christ are Christ's and cannot be distinguished from his person when in the bible Christ himself states that his words come from God and are God's words.. In light of that the author fails to see that if we use his argument the only conclusion can be that God is logos not Christ.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:18 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Jesus prays for several different groups of people in John 17.. not just the "true christians."
You nailed that one!

Joh 17:20 And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word;
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,627,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
You nailed that one!

Joh 17:20 And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word;
Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers [true believing, repentant, obeying Christians] might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,405,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Pray tell the message of the entire cannon... for the edification of we who lack spiritual discernment...

From what I have seen of your own writings, you conclude that you have that figured out...but it appears that you do not.

Hundreds of verses compound the deity of Christ, and the entire canon is the covenant(s) of God to mankind, starting with the Jews, and handed over to the Gentiles so that all people can benefit, Jews and Gentiles.

The sole reason why the Jews lost their right as a covenant people, is because they refused Christ as deity, the Messiah, and the king of the kingdom of God. Just as some of you have refused this message, you all fall into the same trap that the first century Jewish Polity had fallen into, therefore, you as well, will be withheld the true blessing of being a believer.

You cannot call yourself a Christian, if you deny Christ as Lord.
This is what the scripture plainly states, and therefore influnced by the spirit contrary to that of Christ. I will pray for all you in your walk. But that walk first, must start with the surrender of your lving soul, to Christ. Make your choice wisely...have wisdom.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:31 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I think the first one is more of a condemnational nature than the second one so I kinda just skimmed over the first. The second however brings up several good points. The only problem I see is that it is said by the author that the words of Christ are Christ's and cannot be distinguished from his person when in the bible Christ himself states that his words come from God and are God's words.. In light of that the author fails to see that if we use his argument the only conclusion can be that God is logos not Christ.
Clark (no longer living) is like that. He does not hold to universal reconciliation like I do (I can't figure out why others do not ) but he does give some very good historical information on the term "logos" that I found fascinating and wanted to share with you.

I think I agree with you that the the message Jesus presents to us is from the Father. But because the Father and Son are One, the words are also attributed to Christ as the very "logos" of God. At least that's how I interpret it. I do respect your views regarding this issue. Actually, I forgot what we are in disagreement about...LOL, at least as it pertains to how the term "logos" is used in scriptures. The article you posted gave me some other matters of faith to think over that I've struggled with. Thanks for the link.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-14-2009 at 12:32 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:48 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers [true believing, repentant, obeying Christians] might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
Agreed! However, I've had so much dung thrown at me for being a universal reconciliationist that I sometimes wonder (not that it matters) what they've got against me. Some write me off as hell bound for this belief. Before I fully agree, could you tell me what "animated by one soul" means?

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-14-2009 at 12:56 PM.. Reason: spelling content
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Old 11-14-2009, 01:04 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers [true believing, repentant, obeying Christians] might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
Do you believe someone can be a "believer" and not be a "Christian" as that term is defined today?
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Old 11-14-2009, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,405,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Clark (no longer living) is like that. He does not hold to universal reconciliation like I do (I can't figure out why others do not )
Alabama, the reason why other do not hold this view is because it denies the purpose of the Cross for mankind...it is only through Christ, the profession of belief that one can inherit the kingdom.

Not all souls go to Heaven just because Christ died for all.

A covenant takes two....and Christ offered that covenant to those who believe in Him, but outside that covenant are:

Liars, thieves, etc...and they will not inherit that kingdom, and will be eternally separated from Him.

I suggest a book to all those who hold UR:

The Fire That Consumes
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