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How is it that we have ambassadors then? What you proved is the same thing Jesus said:
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world." John 17:24
So Jesus was loved before the creation of the world.... and it is not Jesus' glory but Gods..
Tell me.. if all things are given to Jesus by God.. why so secretive? Why doesn't Jesus just come out and say that he is God.. why pray to himself?
Debating anything with you is usless because you have no idea what you are talking about. Jesus calls himself God over and over again in the bible. That was one of the reasons that the religous authorities wanted to kill Him. When your ideas and questions are based on ignorance of the subject many of your posts are irrelavent and baseless. If it was a court of law your statements would be ruled out of order.
Debating anything with you is usless because you have no idea what you are talking about. Jesus calls himself God over and over again in the bible. That was one of the reasons that the religous authorities wanted to kill Him. When your ideas and questions are based on ignorance of the subject many of your posts are irrelavent and baseless. If it was a court of law your statements would be ruled out of order.
You don't have to debate with me.
I don't see him call himself God at all. If you would like to post the scripture I will happily look it over. I am not set in my ways. I simply see what I see. If you show me where he proclaims he is God then I will be able to say with certainty that he is. So far I have only been shown inferences and mixed verses without verbiage to indicate that as the truth.
I see the opposite.. That if you try to prove Jesus is God to a non-biased person they will not see it. The excuse for that I have heard is that the holy spirit does not dwell in them so it is hidden from them. However, if this belief in Jesus as God is necessary for salvation then it should be clear to even those just seeking out God and not just the spirit filled mature christian. IMO
I don't see him call himself God at all. If you would like to post the scripture I will happily look it over. I am not set in my ways. I simply see what I see. If you show me where he proclaims he is God then I will be able to say with certainty that he is. So far I have only been shown inferences and mixed verses without verbiage to indicate that as the truth.
I see the opposite.. That if you try to prove Jesus is God to a non-biased person they will not see it. The excuse for that I have heard is that the holy spirit does not dwell in them so it is hidden from them. However, if this belief in Jesus as God is necessary for salvation then it should be clear to even those just seeking out God and not just the spirit filled mature christian. IMO
If you have a bible with a concordance you can easily look it up for yourself. I have shown you scriptures already in this thread that you ignore. When Jusus calls Himself, "I Am". What do you think He was saying? When He says "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". That's a clear statement is it not? In the OT when the Child that was to be born is called,Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders and his name shall be called Wonderful Councilor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace is He. When Jesus is refered to as the Alpha and the Omega, The first and the Last in the Bible what do you make of that?
You act all innocent like you have an open mind but you don't. These are just a fraction of the hundreds of scriptures that are all through the bible that attest to the fact that Jesus is Lord. Do you even know what that word lord with a capital L means? It's a title for God.
If you have a bible with a concordance you can easily look it up for yourself. I have shown you scriptures already in this thread that you ignore.
I don't mean to ignore but as you can see it is a great undertaking to reply to all the posts.. I have tried my best though. I will look at what you posted again.
Quote:
When Jusus calls Himself, "I Am". What do you think He was saying?
I believe he is saying just that.. Jesus is not talking about being God in this passage but the Messiah. He states that the Messianic plan of God was before Abraham. In John 17:24 ("Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.) Jesus states that the glory he has was given to him by the Father and he was loved before the creation of the world. I believe the God loved us all before our creation. So when Jesus states "I am" he is saying that he is the fulfillement of the Messiah just like in John 4:26 (Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he.") when he is asked if he is the Messiah. The Jews waited for a messiah and he was stating that the messiah is he.
And in John 18 he tells them not to be deceived by others who claim they are the Messiah by saying "I am he."
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When He says "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". That's a clear ststement is it not.
Yes his purpose as the Messiah is to show them God. He is the representation and image of God. An image of something is not the something though, right?
Quote:
In the OT when the Child that was to be born is called,Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders and his name shall be called Wonderful Councilor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace is He.
Yet if you take that to mean that Jesus is the Mighty God then he must also be the everlasting Father.. is Jesus the Father? I think we would both agree that he is not (he is the son) so there must be some other meaning here.
Quote:
When Jesus is refered to as the Alpha and the Omega, The first and the Last in the Bible what do you make of that.
This is a title. A title is just that. I don't see that if you call a piece of wood God then it must be God because God has the same title.. Not all presidents are the president of the USA.. Not all kings are kings of the world.. to me it states his title.
Quote:
You act all innocent like you have an open mind but you don't. These are just a fraction of the hundreds of scriptures that are all through the bible that attest to the fact that Jesus is Lord. Do you even know what that word lord woth a capital L means? It's a title for God.
I will go more into depth about this later as I have to go off to work, but the capitals mean nothing to me. They were added by the translators for clarification. I do have an open mind. If it is proven then I will agree and that is it.. but as you can see I have issues with all these points you bring up. If you can address my comments and clarify why you think these are proofs or why I am in error from a caring heart then I will recieve them but just because you think they are so doesn't mean everyone does.
As I said, I am open to the fact that Jesus is God.. however I will not worship a human (Jesus) without sufficient proof as I will only worship God not a human.
I believe he is saying just that.. Jesus is not talking about being God in this passage but the Messiah. He states that the Messianic plan of God was before Abraham. In John 17:24 ("Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.) Jesus states that the glory he has was given to him by the Father and he was loved before the creation of the world. I believe the God loved us all before our creation. So when Jesus states "I am" he is saying that he is the fulfillement of the Messiah just like in John 4:26 (Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he.") when he is asked if he is the Messiah. The Jews waited for a messiah and he was stating that the messiah is he.
And in John 18 he tells them not to be deceived by others who claim they are the Messiah by saying "I am he."
Yes his purpose as the Messiah is to show them God. He is the representation and image of God. An image of something is not the something though, right?
Yet if you take that to mean that Jesus is the Mighty God then he must also be the everlasting Father.. is Jesus the Father? I think we would both agree that he is not (he is the son) so there must be some other meaning here.
This is a title. A title is just that. I don't see that if you call a piece of wood God then it must be God because God has the same title.. Not all presidents are the president of the USA.. Not all kings are kings of the world.. to me it states his title.
I will go more into depth about this later as I have to go off to work, but the capitals mean nothing to me. They were added by the translators for clarification. I do have an open mind. If it is proven then I will agree and that is it.. but as you can see I have issues with all these points you bring up. If you can address my comments and clarify why you think these are proofs or why I am in error from a caring heart then I will recieve them but just because you think they are so doesn't mean everyone does.
As I said, I am open to the fact that Jesus is God.. however I will not worship a human (Jesus) without sufficient proof as I will only worship God not a human.
I am extremely impressed with your scholarship, kat . . . especially since you profess not to know the original languages. You have a remarkable grasp of some of the issues. I still cannot rep you so . Nevertheless . . . you know that I see your extensive debate on this issue as a non-issue because of my understanding of the true nature of "personhood" as consciousness in whatever state it manifests (pure spirit or human body). The process nature of human life (and all existence) creates confusing scenarios that we have difficulty getting our carnal minds around.
Few here are equipped or amenable to entertain the idea that the "embryo" Jesus was NOT God . . . but developing God into a human state. The human established requirements of the Omni's . . . (based on misinterpretations) . . . can prevent any rational acceptance of the fact that He had to develop His consciousness . . . as we all do . . . to fully realize and attain God consciousness (thereby becoming indistinguishable from God . . . i.e, One). It definitely isn't any easier to accept that the process also required that His body die before His human consciousness could be reborn as Spirit (Holy Spirit) to rejoin God and make it a real and enduring part of ALL human consciousness accessible to ALL of us. This explains the three separate manifestations of the SAME SPIRIT (consciousness), IMO. In any event . . . let me reiterate my admiration for your independent thinking, diligence and scholarship, kat. God Bless and Be well, Mystic.
I am extremely impressed with your scholarship, kat . . . especially since you profess not to know the original languages. You have a remarkable grasp of some of the issues. I still cannot rep you so . Nevertheless . . . you know that I see your extensive debate on this issue as a non-issue because of my understanding of the true nature of "personhood" as consciousness in whatever state it manifests (pure spirit or human body). The process nature of human life (and all existence) creates confusing scenarios that we have difficulty getting our carnal minds around.
Few here are equipped or amenable to entertain the idea that the "embryo" Jesus was NOT God . . . but developing God into a human state. The human established requirements of the Omni's . . . (based on misinterpretations) . . . can prevent any rational acceptance of the fact that He had to develop His consciousness . . . as we all do . . . to fully realize and attain God consciousness (thereby becoming indistinguishable from God . . . i.e, One). It definitely isn't any easier to accept that the process also required that His body die before His human consciousness could be reborn as Spirit (Holy Spirit) to rejoin God and make it a real and enduring part of ALL human consciousness accessible to ALL of us. This explains the three separate manifestations of the SAME SPIRIT (consciousness), IMO. In any event . . . let me reiterate my admiration for your independent thinking, diligence and scholarship, kat. God Bless and Be well, Mystic.
Thanks for the kind words.. I needed that. I agree.. it is semantics really but the whole thing is elementary if you really just read it. I know the other side would say that too but they are taking it so literally as to miss the whole spiritual meaning. IMO anyway.
Although this is an old thread of mine, and is very long, I decided to present the following passage here, instead of starting a new thread.
In Zechariah 14:5 which speaks of the return of Jesus Christ to the earth at the end of the tribulation, He is identified as God.
Zech 14:5 '...then the LORD (Yah·weh), my GOD (’ĕ·lō·hay), will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
It is Jesus Christ who returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation, not God the Father.
It is Jesus' feet which will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4).
Those who wish to can read the passage at the Biblos online Interlinear Bible Zechariah 14:5 Biblos Interlinear Bible Here the passage can seen in the Hebrew with the transliteration, translation, and sentence structure.
Although this is an old thread of mine, and is very long, I decided to present the following passage here, instead of starting a new thread.
In Zechariah 14:5 which speaks of the return of Jesus Christ to the earth at the end of the tribulation, He is identified as God.
Zech 14:5 '...then the LORD (Yah·weh), my GOD (’ĕ·lō·hay), will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
It is Jesus Christ who returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation, not God the Father.
It is Jesus' feet which will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4).
Those who wish to can read the passage at the Biblos online Interlinear Bible Zechariah 14:5 Biblos Interlinear Bible Here the passage can seen in the Hebrew with the transliteration, translation, and sentence structure.
what in this verse tells you that it is talking about jesus; the reason why i asked is because if a person was already learned about jesus before even had read and investigated the old test on their own with question in mind of whom the verse is speaking of, who is doing the talking, in what time frame it was spoken, etc, such person would assume that it would be talking about jesus. which that is what most of the world sence the time of C.E. had been taught first and then go to the old test after wards.
Ever since Jesus Christ came into the world, He has been and will forevermore be the unique person of the universe. He is both true humanity, and eternal and infinite God in one person. He is in nature, co-equal and co-eternal with both God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit. It is only in position as it relates to God the Fathers eternal plan of salvation, that Jesus Christ voluntarily assumed the role of a servant, and as a man, he was submissive to the Father as a Son.
This is what seperates the true belief of God from the false. Want to know what makes the true faith "true" ..... this is it.
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
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