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Its christianity. Duh, but God knew that we people needed an earthly leader. Without it, you got the thousands of protestant churches we have today. Christ always talked about being one. that doesn't seem like being ONE to me
Christians are one in Christ, not one in Peter or in the catholic Church ... The various denominations are no different than the various factions which are and have always been in the catholic church ...
That also doesn't make sense, he didn't rename Simon's statement, he renamed Simon, Rock, and on this Rock, I will build my church. And going further, how can a statement, decide whats good and bad. How can you give the keys of heaven, to a statement.
Why are you making it more difficult than it has to be? Christ decides what is Good and bad, Christ holds the keys. Power(or the keys) is not given to a statement, or only to Simon Peter, but to those who believe what Simon Peters statement says ... AS no one can believe and confess that Jesus is Christ and the son of God unless it is by the power of the spirit ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-24-2009 at 01:42 PM..
That also doesn't make sense, he didn't rename Simon's statement, he renamed Simon, Rock, and on this Rock, I will build my church. And going further, how can a statement, decide whats good and bad. How can you give the keys of heaven, to a statement.
Matthew 16:15-20 CLV He is saying to them, "Now you, who are you saying that I am? (16) Now answering, Simon Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (17) Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but My Father Who is in the heavens." (18) Now I, also, am saying to you that you are Peter, and on this rock will I be building My ecclesia, and the gates of the unseen shall not be prevailing against it." (19) I will be giving you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth, shall be those having been loosed in the heavens." (20) Then He cautions the disciples that they may be saying to no one that He is the Christ.
He builds His church on the truth He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
He gives the keys of the kingdom of the heavens to Peter.
archbishop Kenrick of the Catholic Church agrees with this in that the majority of church fathers taught it was Peter's avowell that Jesus is the Christ . . . etc. that was the rock the church was built upon.
I am not judging anyone. Just laying out what the scripture is saying. No influence whatsoever. Also, Eusebius, Preterist or not is irrelevant....putting the judgement of 70 AD aside, and let's say it's future for the sake of the dispensationlist.....the fact of the matter is still straightforward. No one is allowed inside the city or even near the throne that are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So therefore, Universalism is a false assumptions based on what? A misinterpretation of the scripture concerning "all"...that "all" are those in the flesh, not the spirit, as I have shown in previous exegesis of Romans, 2 Timothy and so forth. Revelation is the unveiling of all prophecy, and Rev 21-22 is plain about who is inside the gates, and who is outside.
Is Christ the rock carved out of the mountain without hands or is it Peter? Is Christ the the corner stone on which we are built together for an habitation of God(the church), or is it Simon Peter? Can you read and believe what the bible says, or are you only able to believe what the traditions of men tell you?
What is the foundation on which Christianity does lay, Christ or Simon Peter? Is it Peteranity or Christianity? Christ is the head of the church, not peter, peter is no more or less a Christian than any of us ... The Papacy and the system of the clergy is a creation of men to control the laity. It is not what Christ intended ...
What is perhaps the most ironic part of the tradition of this heirarchy is that it is built on the event where Jesus specifically sought to PREVENT any heirarchy . . . the washing of the feet and the injunction that he who would be first will be last. Clearly Jesus sought to disabuse anyone from being the "boss" . . . instead the Catholic Church uses the ritual as the way to become the "boss."!!!
I am not judging anyone. Just laying out what the scripture is saying. No influence whatsoever. Also, Eusebius, Preterist or not is irrelevant....putting the judgement of 70 AD aside, and let's say it's future for the sake of the dispensationlist.....the fact of the matter is still straightforward. No one is allowed inside the city or even near the throne that are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So therefore, Universalism is a false assumptions based on what? A misinterpretation of the scripture concerning "all"...that "all" are those in the flesh, not the spirit, as I have shown in previous exegesis of Romans, 2 Timothy and so forth. Revelation is the unveiling of all prophecy, and Rev 21-22 is plain about who is inside the gates, and who is outside.
That my brothers, you must come to terms with.
How hard is it to understand? Why cant you comprehend what we are saying? Of course no pimps or prostitutes or murderers will be in the kingdom of Heaven ... But what does that mean? Does that mean if you were ever a pimp, or a prostitute, or a murderer, or a sorcerer that you will never be able to enter the kingdom? NO! It means that you must be renewed/reborn in the spirit before you can enter the kingdom. Or else Mary Magdeline wouldn't be allowed in, or King David, Or Solomon, or the apostle Paul for that matter ...
Gods judgments teach righteousness, they purify the ones that are so judged. They are remedial according to scripture ... God doesnt punish people punitively like men do, his purpose in judging humanity is in order to reconcile them, and humble them, and sanctify them, and to destroy their carnal natures.
Why do you keep throwing out this strawman argument? You say you are not judging people, yet if someone doesn't believe the way you do, or have the same religion, you believe in your heart and have stated with your mouth(or hands when you write) that they will be eternally tormented. You say that God will not forgive them or purify them, but that he will be eternally angry with them and cast them off for ever into a flaming lake.
We were all at one time in the flesh and not in the spirit, and while we were yet enemies of God he reconciled us to himself, and by the power of his spirit he came into us and worked within us to be conforming to the mind of Christ. That is aionios life, to come to a knowledge of Christ and the father who sent him while in this life/world/age. Those that are not ELECTED to be a part of the bride/body of Christ do not know and will not know until the end has come ... That is where your full preterist fallacies stand in the way of your ability to understand the eventual reconciliation of all to God.
We have shown in multiple places in scripture where the bible talks about Gods fiery judgments being for the purpose of purification and cleansing of the carnal nature. And we have shown in multiple places in scripture that says that God WILL NOT be angry forever or CAST OFF forever, but that his mercies WILL last throughout the ages until the very end, when all things are finally at one with him ... You refuse to believe this because you are not willing to accept that God is able and willing to save everyone and transform them into new creations so that he can finally be all in all. You think that devalues your service to God here now in this life and in this world. The reason why you think that can only be because you don't truly appreciate what it means to serve God. It is not something we do to merit his forgiveness or salvation, it is something we do because we want to, because we love him who first loved us even when we were his enemies. In my opinion you don't understand what it truly means to have the gift of salvation now in this life/world, because you think you are being cheated somehow by the fact that God will even save those who do not serve him in this life because they have not been chosen by him and made co-heirs of his kingdom. We are the firstfruits of the harvest of the whole world. We are blessed to be saved now, and to know the life of God now in this life in this world in this age. And because you all cant understand this you are desiring that everyone else in the world be tormented for ever and suffer pain for eternity, as if that somehow makes your efforts here and now worth it ... In my opinion that is spiteful, and violent, and hateful, and vindictive, and greedy, and malicious ... And you people believe that God is the same way.
According to the false doctrine of eternal torment and everlasting sin and death and evil, the power of evil and sin and death is far more potent and have by far the greater victory over Gods creation then Gods power of goodness and love and mercy has ... That false doctrine makes the sacrifice of Christ of no effect, or at most of very little effect. You people are saying the power of evil is greater than the power of Good, and that the power of the lie out shines the power of the truth. You guys cant even see that you are proclaiming Satan and evil has the real victory over Gods creation, and that God must be satisfied with only a very small portion of his creation being saved from the power of sin and death. You all make God out to be either impotent, or a monster, and you cant even see it ...
However, i have faith in the living God, that he will one day work in you to understand this good news which some of us here proclaim, which is that Christ died for the whole world, and is the savior of all peple, especially those that believe ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-24-2009 at 04:12 PM..
What is perhaps the most ironic part of the tradition of this heirarchy is that it is built on the event where Jesus specifically sought to PREVENT any heirarchy . . . the washing of the feet and the injunction that he who would be first will be last. Clearly Jesus sought to disabuse anyone from being the "boss" . . . instead the Catholic Church uses the ritual as the way to become the "boss."!!!
Exactly, Jesus and Paul alike both commanded that the greatest among us should be as the least, serving the others and preferring them to ourselves. Jesus talked about how the pharisees loved to sit in the upper rooms and receive the respect of men and be dressed in fine apparel and raiment. This is exactly what the catholic church does, with their sanctimonious false piety, being called father and the like ... Raising themselves up above the rest of the laity, living in lavish luxury while proclaiming poverty, building massive buildings of gold and silver and marble and granite and every fine stone and the finest stained glass and tapestries and paintings of the most skilled artisans, taking to themselves the forgiving of sins as if they were the mediators between men and God. It is obviously Phariseeism ...
How hard is it to understand? Why cant you comprehend what we are saying? Of course no pimps or prostitutes or murderers will be in the kingdom of Heaven ... But what does that mean? Does that mean if you were ever a pimp, or a prostitute, or a murderer, or a sorcerer that you will never be able to enter the kingdom? NO! It means that you must be renewed/reborn in the spirit before you can enter the kingdom. Or else Mary Magdeline wouldn't be allowed in, or King David, Or Solomon, or the apostle Paul for that matter ...
Gods judgments teach righteousness, they purify the ones that are so judged. They are remedial according to scripture ... God doesnt punish people punitively like men do, his purpose in judging humanity is in order to reconcile them, and humble them, and sanctify them, and to destroy their carnal natures.
Why do you keep throwing out this strawman argument? You say you are not judging people, yet if someone doesn't believe the way you do, or have the same religion, you believe in your heart and have stated with your mouth(or hands when you write) that they will be eternally tormented. You say that God will not forgive them or purify them, but that he will be eternally angry with them and cast them off for ever into a flaming lake.
We were all at one time in the flesh and not in the spirit, and while we were yet enemies of God he reconciled us to himself, and by the power of his spirit he came into us and worked within us to be conforming to the mind of Christ. That is aionios life, to come to a knowledge of Christ and the father who sent him while in this life/world/age. Those that are not ELECTED to be a part of the bride/body of Christ do not know and will not know until the end has come ... That is where your full preterist fallacies stand in the way of your ability to understand the eventual reconciliation of all to God.
We have shown in multiple places in scripture where the bible talks about Gods fiery judgments being for the purpose of purification and cleansing of the carnal nature. And we have shown in multiple places in scripture that says that God WILL NOT be angry forever or CAST OFF forever, but that his mercies WILL last throughout the ages until the very end, when all things are finally at one with him ... You refuse to believe this because you are not willing to accept that God is able and willing to save everyone and transform them into new creations so that he can finally be all in all. You think that devalues your service to God here now in this life and in this world. The reason why you think that can only be because you don't truly appreciate what it means to serve God. It is not something we do to merit his forgiveness or salvation, it is something we do because we want to, because we love him who first loved us even when we were his enemies. In my opinion you don't understand what it truly means to have the gift of salvation now in this life/world, because you think you are being cheated somehow by the fact that God will even save those who do not serve him in this life because they have not been chosen by him and made co-heirs of his kingdom. We are the firstfruits of the harvest of the whole world. We are blessed to be saved now, and to know the life of God now in this life in this world in this age. And because you all cant understand this you are desiring that everyone else in the world be tormented for ever and suffer pain for eternity, as if that somehow makes your efforts here and now worth it ... In my opinion that is spiteful, and violent, and hateful, and vindictive, and greedy, and malicious ... And you people believe that God is the same way.
According to the false doctrine of eternal torment and everlasting sin and death and evil, the power of evil and sin and death is far more potent and have by far the greater victory over Gods creation then Gods power of goodness and love and mercy has ... That false doctrine makes the sacrifice of Christ of no effect, or at most of very little effect. You people are saying the power of evil is greater than the power of Good, and that the power of the lie out shines the power of the truth. You guys cant even see that you are proclaiming Satan and evil has the real victory over Gods creation, and that God must be satisfied with only a very small portion of his creation being saved from the power of sin and death. You all make God out to be either impotent, or a monster, and you cant even see it ...
However, i have faith in the living God, that he will one day work in you to understand this good news which some of us here proclaim, which is that Christ died for the whole world, and is the savior of all peple, especially those that believe ...
How hard is it to understand? Why cant you comprehend what we are saying? Of course no pimps or prostitutes or murderers will be in the kingdom of Heaven ... But what does that mean? Does that mean if you were ever a pimp, or a prostitute, or a murderer, or a sorcerer that you will never be able to enter the kingdom? NO! It means that you must be renewed/reborn in the spirit before you can enter the kingdom. Or else Mary Magdeline wouldn't be allowed in, or King David, Or Solomon, or the apostle Paul for that matter ...
Gods judgments teach righteousness, they purify the ones that are so judged. They are remedial according to scripture ... God doesnt punish people punitively like men do, his purpose in judging humanity is in order to reconcile them, and humble them, and sanctify them, and to destroy their carnal natures.
Why do you keep throwing out this strawman argument? You say you are not judging people, yet if someone doesn't believe the way you do, or have the same religion, you believe in your heart and have stated with your mouth(or hands when you write) that they will be eternally tormented. You say that God will not forgive them or purify them, but that he will be eternally angry with them and cast them off for ever into a flaming lake.
We were all at one time in the flesh and not in the spirit, and while we were yet enemies of God he reconciled us to himself, and by the power of his spirit he came into us and worked within us to be conforming to the mind of Christ. That is aionios life, to come to a knowledge of Christ and the father who sent him while in this life/world/age. Those that are not ELECTED to be a part of the bride/body of Christ do not know and will not know until the end has come ... That is where your full preterist fallacies stand in the way of your ability to understand the eventual reconciliation of all to God.
We have shown in multiple places in scripture where the bible talks about Gods fiery judgments being for the purpose of purification and cleansing of the carnal nature. And we have shown in multiple places in scripture that says that God WILL NOT be angry forever or CAST OFF forever, but that his mercies WILL last throughout the ages until the very end, when all things are finally at one with him ... You refuse to believe this because you are not willing to accept that God is able and willing to save everyone and transform them into new creations so that he can finally be all in all. You think that devalues your service to God here now in this life and in this world. The reason why you think that can only be because you don't truly appreciate what it means to serve God. It is not something we do to merit his forgiveness or salvation, it is something we do because we want to, because we love him who first loved us even when we were his enemies. In my opinion you don't understand what it truly means to have the gift of salvation now in this life/world, because you think you are being cheated somehow by the fact that God will even save those who do not serve him in this life because they have not been chosen by him and made co-heirs of his kingdom. We are the firstfruits of the harvest of the whole world. We are blessed to be saved now, and to know the life of God now in this life in this world in this age. And because you all cant understand this you are desiring that everyone else in the world be tormented for ever and suffer pain for eternity, as if that somehow makes your efforts here and now worth it ... In my opinion that is spiteful, and violent, and hateful, and vindictive, and greedy, and malicious ... And you people believe that God is the same way.
According to the false doctrine of eternal torment and everlasting sin and death and evil, the power of evil and sin and death is far more potent and have by far the greater victory over Gods creation then Gods power of goodness and love and mercy has ... That false doctrine makes the sacrifice of Christ of no effect, or at most of very little effect. You people are saying the power of evil is greater than the power of Good, and that the power of the lie out shines the power of the truth. You guys cant even see that you are proclaiming Satan and evil has the real victory over Gods creation, and that God must be satisfied with only a very small portion of his creation being saved from the power of sin and death. You all make God out to be either impotent, or a monster, and you cant even see it ...
However, i have faith in the living God, that he will one day work in you to understand this good news which some of us here proclaim, which is that Christ died for the whole world, and is the savior of all peple, especially those that believe ...
Excellent Ironmaw! You summed it up well - keep on defending the truth.
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