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Old 11-16-2009, 06:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Clement of Alexandria is not Clement of Rome. Read my post and see that Clement of Rome made it clear that you must believe in Christ before you die.

Further, Justin Martyr made it clear that eternal condemnation is eternal and not temporary as Plato had claimed. Read the post.
Mike, i never said that he was ... If you read my first post i made not of the fact he was from Rome and was not a native Greek speaking Christian, but was a Native Latin speaking Christian, and i mentioned that the only seminary in early Christendom was the one in Carthage Rome, which also happened to be eht Pagan Capital of the world at the time, so it is no wonder he believed in eternal torment.

And i said that Justin Martyr was most likely a believer in annihilation or what is otherwise known as conditional mortality and not in eternal torment, and he was a native Latin speaking Christian who like clement of rome did not read or speak koine Greek. When you quote him saying eternal condemnation, what you are not understanding is that he understood that to me being for ever annihilated and not tortured in fire for ever.

 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Read the post and get it straight people. Clement of Alexandria is not the same person as Clement of Rome. Clement of Rome died by 101 A.D. He was a contemporary of the Apostles. Here is his writing.

''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance. (In other words, before you die, because afterwards, it is too late.)

After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repentng will belong to us.'' (Second Clement 8:4 and 8:5)
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:14 PM
 
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"Even as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified" The Apostle Paul to the Corinthians 15:22)

It does not say "just all who are in Adam are dying." It does not say "just all who are in Christ shall be vivified."

God will be All in all 1 Cor.15:28. Not All in some.
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:16 PM
 
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Clement was not inspired nor in the Bible. We need to heed Paul when he wrote that all mankind will be saved and all mankind will have God as their Saviour (1 Tim.4:10,11; 1 Tim.2:4-6) THESE THINGS CHARGE AND TEACH.
Something sciotamicks and mike can't do because Jesus is not their Lord in fact, just in word.
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:19 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Justin Martyr said ''...at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.'' (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)

Justin Martyr makes it clear that the punishment is everlasting and not temporary as Plato had claimed
.
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Florida
1,313 posts, read 1,546,823 times
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WOW!
I'll admit I was lost by the third reply.
One thing caught my eye, and I wanted to bring it up.
(and, yes, I'm a sola Scripture kinda guy )
"Eternal Torment"
From what I know of my Bible, "whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life" means that the saved will be rewarded with eternal life.
How can there be eternal torture and torment without eternal life?
Wouldn't that mean that everyone gets eternal life?
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes I do. I believe that the scripture is literal, figurative, symbolic and spriritual...all weaved together as one. This is the ONLY way to interpret it...no other way...what you are doing is gnostic and contrary to its premise. I believe in the 6 day creation and that Adam was the first man. Your view is a twist of Covenant creationism which is in error.
I am a young earther.
And i agree that there are literal, figurative and symbolic language throughout the bible. Certain sections are obviously symbolic, as in most of the book of revelations, a large portion of Daniel, and the creation parts of genesis. If you cant see this then i do not care to try and force my understanding on you.



Quote:
I never said that all that have lived aren't in Heaven. You must first hear the gospel, then deny it, to be damned. Paul expounded this.
Paul expounded on the fact that everyone will confess Christ as lord and all things in heaven and on earth and below the earth will be reconciled to god and that God will be all in all and that there will be no more pain or death or and work of the devil as well. Something you guys just cant seem to comprehend, as you believe these things will exist forever.

Quote:
But be careful about what you preach:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Indeed, the same Goes for you my friend. As in the last few post i have provided mountains of evidence showing the vast majority of early Christians believed in what i and others like me are proclaiming, compared to the relative molehill of evidence which you and mike have offered to prove contrary.



Quote:
No disrespect taken. I have felt stronger blows than anyone has given me here at this forum. The points made above, about the literal second coming of Christ, etc, are irrelevant to this thread. You can bring it up in the "Heavens and Earth" thread if you like. I would like to keep this one focused on UR. Thanks.
My only point is that you are just as influenced by pagans and Gnostics as you claim origen was in your beliefs that their is no literal resurrection of the dead or in that you do not believe in a literal return of Christ. If you studied the Christian gnostic gospels you would realize they did/do not teach the literal resurrection of the dead or the literal return of Christ either but something much like what you teach here on C-D ... Also, plato didn't believe in the literal resurrection of the dead, so does that make you influenced by Plato as well?
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:28 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,724,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Read the post and get it straight people. Clement of Alexandria is not the same person as Clement of Rome. Clement of Rome died by 101 A.D. He was a contemporary of the Apostles. Here is his writing.

''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance. (In other words, before you die, because afterwards, it is too late.)

After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repentng will belong to us.'' (Second Clement 8:4 and 8:5)

You know what, Simon Magus was also a contemporary of the apostles who went around claiming to be a christian and influenced many different christian sects ... Does that mean he was write about what he taught? Oh yeah, we have the bible to tell us that we should not, and that he was an impostor. Good thing for clement he didn't start writing until nearly forty years after the death of the apostle peter and was never mentioned in the bible for his pagan heresy ...

As we see, the apostle Paul says every tongue will confess that Christ is lord, while Clement says that they wont. And Clement disagrees with Peter who says that all should come to repentance, and that the Gospel is preached unto the dead so that they might live in the spirit according to God ... I wonder who we should believe ... ?
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:32 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,938 posts, read 26,165,604 times
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The claim has been made by the Univeralists that eternal condemnation was a concept created by the Roman Catholic church. This has now been disputed. Do any of the universalists deny this? And if you do, why do you, in light of the clear writings of the early church fathers whose writings have been quoted for all to see?
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
1,313 posts, read 1,546,823 times
Reputation: 462
guess I'll go back to my little corner
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