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Ok I concede to you Ironmaw..if we are speaking of all enemies, but Christ first and foremost enemy was Israel the harlot, who killed Him and His disciples and apostles, and they were put under His feet at 70 AD.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
However, the last enemy death was, and that was done and gone past.
When you die, you will be immediately zapped into Heaven.
The resurrection already began taking place after His resurrection:
Matt 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The above is in direct parallel with:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them
What entails later in this very same verse is the period between 30-70 AD
In Rev 20, there are three groups:
Those that sit on the thrones
Souls Beheaded for Christ
Those that Endured and died in the Great Tribulation
Those that sit on the thrones are those in Matt 27 - saints of the OT
Souls beheaded for Christ are those that perished AFTER the resurrection.
Those in the Great Tribulation are those in the Great Tribulation from 66-70 AD
Rev 20 Begins with the resurrection, that of the saints.
Let's evaluate the thousand years why don't we?
I will start another thread....so I don't hijack this one.
Go ahead ... I will answer and or ask whatever questions i have concerning your remarks in the above in that thread.
Whatever translation you want to use is irrelevant....the Holy Spirit graces us that believe that Christ is Deity, and through that relevation, the revealing of the Holy Word follows. I have seen many arguements regarding the various translations and their errors, but it grows from one source, and that is Jesus, and the faith in Him as God. I prefer the NKJV, however, to get a full scope of the word, it is pertinent to read others...the NIV is good as well, as all of them for that matter.
Denying the truth in the word is dangerous.
The Holy Spirit graces us when we read the scriptures through the eyes and mind of Christ and reject the primitive concepts and notions of Jehovah (which are wrong) instead of trying to apply them to Christ who exemplifies Jehovah's TRUE NATURE. You would have more success fitting square pegs in round holes. Denying the need for our understanding of the truth to MATURE and not remain stagnant in the 1st century and earlier is where the spiritual danger really lies.
honestly, folks can interpret scripture pretty much however they want to. what it boils down to is what does one believe regarding the Divine Nature? those who believe that God is Love, God is Light and in him is no darkness at all will hear that same love reflected in the scriptures. those who believe he is a God of vengeance will read the same scriptures and hear eternal damnation (although, ironically, such damnation is reserved for others rather than oneself LOL). keep up the good fight for the true faith, ironmaw and little elmer. faith whose full weight rests not in a book or theory-ology of men, but in the character and nature of the One Living Being, as revealed 2000 yrs ago in the face of Jesus and now to us personally by the Spirit.
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
Polycarp 5:3
In like manner also the younger men must be blameless in all things, caring for purity before everything and curbing themselves from every
evil. For it is a good thing to refrain from lusts in the world, for every lust warreth against the Spirit, and neither whoremongers nor effeminate persons nor defilers of themselves with men shall inherit the kingdom of God, neither they that do untoward things. Wherefore it is right to abstain from all these things, submittingyourselves to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ. The virgins must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.
Polycarp 6:2
If then we entreat the Lord that He would forgive us, we also ought to forgive: for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we must all stand at the judgment-seat of Christ, and each man must give an account of himself.
And he confirms the Lord returned:
Polycarp 6:3
Let us therefore so serve Him with fear and all reverence, as He himself gave commandment and the Apostles who preached the Gospel to us and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of our Lord; being zealous as touching that which is good, abstaining from offenses and from the false brethren and from them that bear the name of the Lord in hypocrisy, who lead foolish men astray.
Polycarp 7:1
For every one who shall not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is antichrist: and whosoever shall not confess the testimony of the Cross, is of the devil; and whosoever shall pervert the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts and say that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, that man is the firstborn of Satan.
Polycarp 8:1
Let us therefore without ceasing hold fast by our hope and by the earnest of our righteousness, which is Jesus Christ who took up our sins in His own body upon the tree, who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth, but for our sakes He endured all things, that we might live in Him.
Just remember that these are words of fallible men without scripture references....People may blow them off.....and stick to the writings of fallible men that tickle their ears.............
Just remember that these are words of fallible men without scripture references....People may blow them off.....and stick to the writings of fallible men that tickle their ears.............
Claims are made by those who espouse the heresy of universal salvation, that the doctrine of eternal condemnation was not taught in the early church, but that it was a belief that arose later, with the Catholic Church. This is not true.
The early church fathers are categorized as: the apostolic fathers; the ante-Nicene church fathers; and the post-Nicene church fathers.
The apostolic church fathers were those who were contemporaries of the Apostles and carried on the teaching of the Apostles. These church leaders taught eternal condemnation in the lake of fire, long before the establishment of the Catholic church. Following are some quotations from some of the writings of some of early church fathers, and afterwards, some links for further information will be provided. I have only used quotations from no later than than about 189 A.D.
It should be pointed out that what matters is what the Bible teaches about the eternal lake of fire. Not what the church at any time in history says about it. But as it turns out, the early church is in agreement with the Bible.
(Exact dates may be subject to debate, but are close.)
Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, [110 A.D.]) ''Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him.
Clement of Rome (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D.150]) ''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.''
(Second Clement 8:4) ''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance.''
(Second Clement 8:5) ''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.'' (In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are alive on this earth.)
Justin Martyr (First Apology 12 [150 A.D]) ''No more is it possible for the evil doer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of Fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments.''
Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII [150 A.D.]) ''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if anyone say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal and not for a temporary amount of time.)
Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII [150 A.D.]) ''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''
Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2 [189 A.D]) ''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the word of God and despise his coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lor shall say,'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,'' they will be damned forever.'' (Notice the reference to Matthew 25:41)
I have used only a few of the early church leaders as evidence of the early churches teaching of eternal condemnation. There are more, such as; Polycarp (155 A.D.); Athenagoras (177 A.D.); Theophilus of Antioch (181 A.D.); Mathetes (160 A.D.)
What Did the Early Christians Believe About Hell? (http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/what_Did_the_Early_Christians_Believe_About_Hell - broken link)
The claims of universalists that the Catholic church originated the teaching of eternal condemnation are shown to be false. From the beginning of the church, eternal condemnation was taught in accordance with the Word of God, as shown by the very quotations of the church fathers themselves.
Understand this. Universal reconciliation is NOT universal salvation. Christ died for all, but many will reject the offer of salvation. Reconciliation simply means that Christ died for every single sin that will ever be commited in the human race. He paid the penalty for every last sin that will ever be committed. That means that sin is not an issue in aqquiring salvation, and sin is not an issue in maintaining salvation. But where the barrier of sin once stood between God and man, there is now an open door to salvation through which whosoever may walk through faith in Christ. God requires a volitional decision to believe in Christ as the condition for salvation. And as mentioned by Clement of Rome, (refer to the above quotation), that decision must be made this side of death.
What is meant by the term Christian Universalism?
That Christianity is a "Universal Religion," and is for people everywhere and in all times, is a statement that is disputed by very few Christians today. But, the full extent of the truth of its universality is not realized by the majority.
Many people today may understand the term "Universalism", as it relates to religion, as a word that designates the belief that "All religions are equally true, good, and that they all equally will lead to heaven, or to God." This definition of "Universalism" could better be described as "Pluralist Universalism" and could be equated with "secular humanism".
This definition of "Universalism" is NOT to be confused with the original meaning of "Universalism" as it related to Christianity. The original meaning of "Universalism", as it relates to Christianity, could now be better described by using the term "Christian Universalism". Any true definition of Christian Universalism MUST INCLUDE THE BELIEF that God is all Sovereign, loving, powerful, wise, just, and ultimately rules over everything. It MUST ALSO INCLUDE the belief that salvation is only by faith in God and was finalized by Jesus Christ "who gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:6). The definition of Christian Universalism DOES INCLUDE THE BELIEF that God "will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).
Excerpt: Sounds Ecumenical to me:
Today, we find members of almost every Christian communion, Greek, Romish, Lutheran, Church of England, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Unitarian, Friends, etc., etc., differing widely in many respects, but all agreeing in this one Divine truth, that God loves all men, and will have them to be saved; that Christ gave himself a ransom for all, and that all will ultimately be brought to holiness and happiness. -----------------
So, if UR is a true concept, then who did Christ die for and why did he have to die if salvation is meant for all? If Christ died for all sin and God will temporally punish those that don't believe and hence the eventual salvation of all, then that means that God has unjustly extracted payment for the same sin twice, once from Christ and a second time from the non-believer who according to UR will eventually be reconciled to God after they have paid the price for their sins, that makes no sense if God is in fact a just God.....Is UR a way to give comfort to those with loved ones that don't believe before they die?....hmmm
What is meant by the term Christian Universalism?
That Christianity is a "Universal Religion," and is for people everywhere and in all times, is a statement that is disputed by very few Christians today. But, the full extent of the truth of its universality is not realized by the majority.
Many people today may understand the term "Universalism", as it relates to religion, as a word that designates the belief that "All religions are equally true, good, and that they all equally will lead to heaven, or to God." This definition of "Universalism" could better be described as "Pluralist Universalism" and could be equated with "secular humanism".
This definition of "Universalism" is NOT to be confused with the original meaning of "Universalism" as it related to Christianity. The original meaning of "Universalism", as it relates to Christianity, could now be better described by using the term "Christian Universalism". Any true definition of Christian Universalism MUST INCLUDE THE BELIEF that God is all Sovereign, loving, powerful, wise, just, and ultimately rules over everything. It MUST ALSO INCLUDE the belief that salvation is only by faith in God and was finalized by Jesus Christ "who gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:6). The definition of Christian Universalism DOES INCLUDE THE BELIEF that God "will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).
Excerpt: Sounds Ecumenical to me:
Today, we find members of almost every Christian communion, Greek, Romish, Lutheran, Church of England, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Unitarian, Friends, etc., etc., differing widely in many respects, but all agreeing in this one Divine truth, that God loves all men, and will have them to be saved; that Christ gave himself a ransom for all, and that all will ultimately be brought to holiness and happiness. -----------------
So, if UR is a true concept, then who did Christ die for and why did he have to die if salvation is meant for all? If Christ died for all sin and God will temporally punish those that don't believe and hence the eventual salvation of all, then that means that God has unjustly extracted payment for the same sin twice, once from Christ and a second time from the non-believer who according to UR will eventually be reconciled to God after they have paid the price for their sins, that makes no sense if God is in fact a just God.....Is UR a way to give comfort to those with loved ones that don't believe before they die?....hmmm
Simple, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin . Hebrews 9 : 22
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. - HEBREWS 10:10-14
So, if UR is a true concept, then who did Christ die for and why did he have to die if salvation is meant for all? If Christ died for all sin and God will temporally punish those that don't believe and hence the eventual salvation of all, then that means that God has unjustly extracted payment for the same sin twice, once from Christ and a second time from the non-believer who according to UR will eventually be reconciled to God after they have paid the price for their sins, that makes no sense if God is in fact a just God.....Is UR a way to give comfort to those with loved ones that don't believe before they die?....hmmm
Christ is the means through which the sins of the world are taken away. Christ died for every human. He is the atonement for the sin of the world. You ask why did Christ have to come at all. Pcamps said why.
Think about it: if Christ comes to take some sins away, He needed to die on the cross. But if Christ actually takes all sins away, He didn't need to die on the cross at all? That makes no sense. If He didn't die on the cross, no sins would have been atoned for and the sin of the world would not be taken away.
There is no "unjust double payment extracted" here. God is not seeking "payment for sin", nor can one pay for theirs sins in order to gain salvation. NO. Christ already ensured our salvation at the cross.
God's punishments and judgments are corrective in nature, not out of petty need for vengeance, but out of His righteous love: to correct and reconcile. What looks like punishment to us is simply correction and chastisement.
Every single person is dealt with in this way:
1. Christ dies for their sin
2. The person is corrected
Step #1 is done. Step #2 is not done yet (from our perspective). Step #2 may be different for each person, and it happens all according to God's plan. There is no artificial barrier that prevents God from correcting a person after death. In fact none of us will be perfect until the resurrection when we are raised incorruptible.
BTW none of this will make sense if in the back of your mind you still keep thinking salvation is from eternal torment.
So, if UR is a true concept, then who did Christ die for and why did he have to die if salvation is meant for all?
Jesus was not God's offering for us. God states in the OT that he abhors even the animal sacrifices, and more so a human sacrifice (Jeremiah 19:4-6; Psalm 106:37-38; Ezekiel 16:20). It is plain that the Jews would kill him and we call that Christ's sacrifice for us but it is not as if God needed a sacrifice of any kind.
Isaiah 1:11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
It is the man's conscience that was appeased by the sacrifice not God.
Quote:
If Christ died for all sin and God will temporally punish those that don't believe and hence the eventual salvation of all, then that means that God has unjustly extracted payment for the same sin twice, once from Christ and a second time from the non-believer who according to UR will eventually be reconciled to God after they have paid the price for their sins, that makes no sense if God is in fact a just God.....Is UR a way to give comfort to those with loved ones that don't believe before they die?....hmmm
You bring up a good point, that UR and ET have in common. That God will take away all sins due to his sending Jesus Christ as savior. Is it that God requires sins to be paid for by Christ and by us as well?
Now here is where I differ from the typical URer. Most URers will state that all will eventually be saved. I don't think that way because for one, Jesus abolished all sin therefore sin should not count against us; second, if the wages of sin are death, then when one dies they have paid for their sin. So that Jesus cleanses all sin and God imputes Jesus' righteousness on all men. I don't believe that anyone will be punished in an afterlife setting. It is all done right here on earth for edification and the purpose is to show error and correct it. Such that if I lie to my brother he will not trust me. Those are the consequences of that sin. That has nothing to do with any afterlife... and if that sin were carried over into punishment (temporary or everlasting) then that would be paying for a sin twice as you say.
Now mind you, I feel differently about this than the typical URer, I would guess. But I believe that in order to debate with an ETer they must first see the error in the punishment itself and then they can be open to the equality of all sinners and the salvation of all sinners so that some URers will use the word eventually. But that is my opinion and I cannot speak for all.
So if all men are saved.. what then is the purpose in sharing the gospel and belief in that salvation? Well if you believe you are saved then you are freed from the burden of sin... if you do not believe then you will continue in that sin. So then it is important to share the word of God so that all may be relieved of their burden and come to realize that they are saved.
Last edited by katjonjj; 11-22-2009 at 12:22 PM..
Reason: spelling.....errrrg
What is meant by the term Christian Universalism?
That Christianity is a "Universal Religion," and is for people everywhere and in all times, is a statement that is disputed by very few Christians today. But, the full extent of the truth of its universality is not realized by the majority.
Many people today may understand the term "Universalism", as it relates to religion, as a word that designates the belief that "All religions are equally true, good, and that they all equally will lead to heaven, or to God." This definition of "Universalism" could better be described as "Pluralist Universalism" and could be equated with "secular humanism".
This definition of "Universalism" is NOT to be confused with the original meaning of "Universalism" as it related to Christianity. The original meaning of "Universalism", as it relates to Christianity, could now be better described by using the term "Christian Universalism". Any true definition of Christian Universalism MUST INCLUDE THE BELIEF that God is all Sovereign, loving, powerful, wise, just, and ultimately rules over everything. It MUST ALSO INCLUDE the belief that salvation is only by faith in God and was finalized by Jesus Christ "who gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:6). The definition of Christian Universalism DOES INCLUDE THE BELIEF that God "will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).
Excerpt: Sounds Ecumenical to me:
Today, we find members of almost every Christian communion, Greek, Romish, Lutheran, Church of England, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Unitarian, Friends, etc., etc., differing widely in many respects, but all agreeing in this one Divine truth, that God loves all men, and will have them to be saved; that Christ gave himself a ransom for all, and that all will ultimately be brought to holiness and happiness. -----------------
So, if UR is a true concept, then who did Christ die for and why did he have to die if salvation is meant for all? If Christ died for all sin and God will temporally punish those that don't believe and hence the eventual salvation of all, then that means that God has unjustly extracted payment for the same sin twice, once from Christ and a second time from the non-believer who according to UR will eventually be reconciled to God after they have paid the price for their sins, that makes no sense if God is in fact a just God.....Is UR a way to give comfort to those with loved ones that don't believe before they die?....hmmm
The answer to your question is that the wages of sin is death. Period ...
The wages of sin is not everlasting or eternal torment. This is the very first fallacy in the line of reasoning supposed by believers of eternal torment. Christ died so that he could destroy the power of death. Because of Christs sacrifice all humanity will be made alive in him, even as they die in Adam.
Now that we will all be resurrected and saved from death by the blood of the cross of Christ, there is still the need for the destruction of the carnal nature. All people are salted with fire, including Christians, and all peoples works will be tested by fire, though the believer in Christ who is not a wicked servant will not be hurt of the second death ... The question is, if Christ died to save us from the wages of sin which is death, then what is the purpose of the fiery judgments of God which shall take place after the resurrection of the wicked and unbelieving? If it was only to torture them for ever then God would be infinitely returning evil for evil, and that would make/prove him a sadistic monster even by his own words, and he certainly could not be understood as the God who IS love as it is written concerning him. If his fiery judgments were merely for the purpose of killing(and thus finally annihilating) those who had been resurrected to face his judgments, then he would be vain and petty, seeing that he could have simply left them dead and the same end would have come of it if he had not even resurrected them to begin with. Do you think God is a sadistic monster? Or do you think he is vain and petty?
The only other explanation for his fiery judgments, which just happens to be the explanation which the bible gives for them, is that they are for the purpose of purifying and refining them that are so judged. This understanding, which is the only scriptural understanding given about Gods judgments, falls in line with all other Scripture which speaks of Christ being the savior of all men, and not only of believers, and of scripture which states that God is in Christ reconciling all things in the universe to himself, which means that all things will be in a state of harmony, fully subject to the power of the spirit of Christ and willingly obedient to him. So that all peoples of all times will bow before him in worship and will confess him as their lord and will sing the name of God in joy and in thanksgiving for his boundless mercies and grace.
This is not acceptable for many Christians, because of the violence and hate which they harbor i their hearts of ice and stone. But even their frozen and stony disposition to the power of Gods love will one day melt and soften in the presence of the all consuming fire of Gods tender loving kindness. Indeed, though God certainly judges in wrath, he shall not always be wroth, but he will turn the wayward heart to himself and heal the corruptible flesh and restore and renew the spiritual mind of all that are in creation till he at last be all and in all.
Amen and Selah ...
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