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The claim has been made by the Univeralists that eternal condemnation was a concept created by the Roman Catholic church. This has now been disputed. Do any of the universalists deny this? And if you do, why do you, in light of the clear writings of the early church fathers whose writings have been quoted for all to see?
Not true, the claim is that the doctrine of eternal torment was Pagan to begin with, most notably in Egypt centuries before Christ, and then it was adopted by Pagan Rome and finally made orthodox doctrine in the sixth century. What ever you read must have been a typo or a mistake or something because i don't know anyone who believes in UR and claims what you say they do ...
Sorry ... I just read your post and i agree with you. Either annihilation is true or UR ... I believe that scripture corroborates UR over Annihilation ... And i dont believe eternal life is the proper translation of "Aionios Zoe". I believe the proper translation would be life pertaining to the ages ... In the same regard i don't believe that "aionios kolasis" should be translated as eternal punishment, but it should be translated as correction pertaining to the ages ...
There is a obviously difference between aionios zoe(life pertaining to the ages) and aphtharsia(immoratility), one describe quality of life, and the other describes duration of life. They do not bot mean the same thing or else they wouldn't have used different words to describe the same thing, that would be confusing and redundant.
"Godwillhave all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (1 Tim.2:4-6).
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially (not exclusively) of believers. These things command and teach." (1 Tim.4:10,11)
Does sciotamicks believe God was getting this from Gnosticism?
Notice how sciotamicks and mike are disobedient to God.
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The UR interpretation contradicts the scriptures in 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:22, and Rom. 5:18, we are left with the correct interpretation that the "all" means only the Christians who have entered the covenant in Christ.
Not true, the claim is that the doctrine of eternal torment was Pagan to begin with, most notably in Egypt centuries before Christ, and then it was adopted by Pagan Rome and finally made orthodox doctrine in the sixth century. What ever you read must have been a typo or a mistake or something because i don't know anyone who believes in UR and claims what you say they do ...
Here is what you said in the thread 'Here is What the Word Apolumi-Destroy; Means' in Post # 130.
quote It is the doctrine of eternal torment that is the apostate doctrine which was created by the pagan Roman church three hundred years after Christianity had become institutionalized by the Roman state. These are the facts, and what you have been taught about eternal torment is a pagan fable derived first from Egypt, then adopted by the pagan Romans, and then introduced finally into Christianity more than half a millennium after the death of Christ.
These are the facts
unquote
Now, every single one of the early church fathers listed, none later than about 185 A.D. wrote that the unbeliever goes into:
Eternal punishment; everlasting punishment; endless duration: Justin Martyr who makes it plain that he meant eternal as opposed to temporary as Plato had claimed. (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII. [about 150 A.D.])
Everlasting fire; be damned forever: Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2, [about 189 A.D.])
Depart into unquenchable fire: Ignatius of Antioch, (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2. [110 A.D.])
What you correctly refer to as eternal torment, is what is taught by these church fathers of the first and second centuries. Long before the half millennium that you claimed, and has been quoted above. Do you deny this? Or do you wish to acknowledge your error?
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-16-2009 at 07:48 PM..
You as much as admitted in Post # 28 that Clement wrote about eternal condemnation. Do you now wish to deny that the early church taught eternal condemnation? Are do you wish to stick with your earlier assertion that eternal torment wasn't introduced into Christianity until a half Millennium after the death of Christ. Which is it?
Do any of you universalists deny that Justin Martyr wrote ''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.'' (First Apology of Justin, Chap XXXIII, [150 A.D or there abouts])
Are there any Universalists who care to deny that Irenaeus of Lyons wrote in about 189 A.D. ''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever.'' (Against Heresies, 4:28:2)
He quoted Jesus Christ in Matthew 25:41.
Are there any universalists who wish to deny that Irenaeus taught eternal condemnation?
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