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Those who will not believe the truth concerning the need for believing in Christ for salvation, will just have to learn the hard way that they were wrong.
Those who will not believe the truth concerning the need for believing in Christ for salvation, will just have to learn the hard way that they were wrong.
I feel sorry for you guys. I am sorry that the idea that most of creation suffering for ever makes you feel good. It is very telling if your spiritual disposition, and you are completely unaware of it. I love you anyways ...
You have proven nothing but your own desire to deny others the gift of salvation, and that a few early Christians and most pagans in the the times of the apostles and early church agreed with you on the matter. I have proven that the vast majority of the early church fathers and the early church seminaries taught universal reconciliation/apocatastasis. You have done nothing to debunk this fact.
May God have mercy on us all, because it is obvious most humans (especially Christians) don't have it in their hearts to be merciful on others who disagree with their belief system. Good night ...
Selah ...
It surprises me also that many who profess the name of Christ do not themselves believe the good news (the Gospel). Their's is a proclamation of damnation, rather than a proclamation of Christ's accomplished work for us on the cross.
Originally Posted by Eusebius "Godwillhave all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (1 Tim.2:4-6).
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially (not exclusively) of believers. These things command and teach." (1 Tim.4:10,11)
Does sciotamicks believe God was getting this from Gnosticism?
Notice how sciotamicks and mike are disobedient to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The UR interpretation contradicts the scriptures in 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:22, and Rom. 5:18, we are left with the correct interpretation that the "all" means only the Christians who have entered the covenant in Christ.
See what I mean? you are disobedient to God. He specifically tells us to charge and teach that God will save all mankind and is the Saviour of all mankind. You think God would have us charge and teach things which would contradict other scripture? No.
Let's look at the verses you say UR contradicts by being obedient to God:
2Co 5:14-15 For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died." (15) And He died for the sake of all that those who are living should by no means still be living to themselves, but to the One dying and being roused for their sakes."
It does not contradict "God will have all mankind to be saved" nor "God is the Saviour of all mankind. These things charge and teach" (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11). Since all mankind died in the death of Christ, Christ put the old humanity to death. "One who dies has been justified from sin." It doesn't say "He died just for baptists" or a limited amount of humans.
Now the other verse you say UR's understanding of 1 Tim.2:4-6 and 4:10,11 contradicts:
1Cor. 15:22 "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."
This verse actually upholds our understanding! It does not say "all who are in Adam are dying." Neither does it say "all who are in Christ shall be vivified." It says "in Christ shall ALL be vivified. How do I know this does not mean just Christians? Because Christ and those who are Christ's do not nearly fill up the "in Adam ALL (humans) are dying." There needs to be a third group called the consummation class:
1Co 15:23-26 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit (class), Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's (class) in His presence;" (24) thereafter the consummation (class), whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (25) For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy is being abolished: death.
sciotamicks, is the reason you don't want to be obedient because you are afraid of being reproached?:
1Ti 4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
You see, sciotamicks, who is the one being reproached here? You or the URists? Surly not you for charging and teaching that God will NOT save all mankind and teach that "God is NOT the Saviour of all mankind."
Start being obedient. If you can't, just don't call Jesus your Lord, for one who calls one their Lord does what their Lord tells them to do.
Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:
“It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. “ ‘God will not forget,’ ” they say, “ ‘to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.’ ” This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called “vessels of mercy,” those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, “ ‘Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.’ ” Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: “ ‘But the righteous into life eternal.’ ” (end quote)
It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine's day did “deplore the notion of eternal punishment” by yielding to “human feelings” and reliance upon God's mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of “eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery''? I say No, he was not.
He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of “damned” vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ's brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
Secondly, the “kolasin aionion” or “chastening eonian” which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I'm sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
But this is not their “eternal” lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now."
What is interesting is that "very many" can be translated "the majority" in Augustine's day who believed God would save all.
In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism. [8] The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E. [9] Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church. [10] Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis and theosis as its main teachings.
Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology based on Christian Universalist beliefs. [11]
Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament. [12]
Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister, were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen. [13] [14] Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.
Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith. [15]
I'm just so glad to see Mike quote the earliest Church Fathers who's doctrine was and is so clearly Catholic. Come on home, Mike.
Exactly my thoughts. And he claims the roman Catholic Church is mystery Babylon, yet he quotes one of the 1st roman popes as if he were the apostles Paul himself. The funny thing is, according to modern scholarship, 2nd clement was not written by Clement at all ..
Quote:
The Second Epistle of Clement is a homily, or sermon, likely written in Corinth or Rome, but not by Clement.[1] Early Christian congregations often shared homilies to be read. The homily describes Christian character and repentance.[1] It is possible that the Church from which Clement sent his epistle had included a festal homily to share in one economical post, thus the homily became known as the Second Epistle of Clement.
While 2 Clement has been traditionally ascribed to Clement, most scholars believe that 2 Clement was written in the second century based on the doctrinal themes of the text and a near match between words in 2 Clement and in the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians.[2][19]
^ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz "Clement of Rome, St." Cross, F. L. (ed.), The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church, (New York: Oxford University Press, 2005).
^ McBrien (2000). "Lives of the Popes". HarperCollins. pp. 35
Note that it is a near match of the gospel of the Egyptians, which was a Gnostic text ... Interesting that it was the Egyptians who were among the first to believe in eternal torment as well ...
Yeah the more we look at Mikes evidences the more we see who is influenced by pagans and who is not.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-17-2009 at 02:12 PM..
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