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Old 11-18-2009, 08:00 AM
 
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Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -" (Rom 5:12)

Notice, none of us had to do anything to have death pass through into us and make us sinners. We are just neutral recipients of what Adam did.

Now look at this and notice how we get what we get due to what Adam did then due to what Christ did:

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying." For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
(Romans 5:18-19 CLV)

The exact same "all mankind" that get condemnation due to what Adam did are the exact same "all mankind" that get their lives justified due to what Christ did.

The exact same "the many" where were made or "constituted sinners" due to what Adam did (not what we do) are the exact same "the many" that get made or "constituted just" due to what Christ did.

Notice in verse 19 above Paul switches from "all mankind" to "the many." Why? Because Christ was never made or constituted a sinner due to what Adam did. He is the only exception.

So this is just one more nail in the coffin of the Eternal Tormentist doctrine.

Salvation is not based upon what we do, but upon what Adam and Christ did.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:56 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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And I believe God will "bend the will" (break it, actually) of the stubborn heart of man, in order to accomplish all His pleasure - which He proclaimed He would do.

Quote:
"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. (Jer 18:6)
Now, you'll say, "but, but, but - that's the house of Israel, the people of God!" So, sinners are more powerful than God, and are outside of His jurisdiction...rubbish.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

So this is just one more nail in the coffin of the Eternal Tormentist doctrine.
One act of righteousness, not a single event, but generally to Christ obedience culminating in the greatest demonstration of that obedience, death on a cross...justification to all men. This cannot mean that all men will be saved, salvation is only for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Rather like the word "many" in verse 15, Paul is using "all" with two different means for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in Hebrew OT.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:07 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
One act of righteousness, not a single event, but generally to Christ obedience culminating in the greatest demonstration of that obedience, death on a cross...justification to all men. This cannot mean that all men will be saved, salvation is only for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Rather like the word "many" in verse 15, Paul is using "all" with two different means for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in Hebrew OT.
And that "exercise in faith" is not so high a bar (from a physical standpoint) as man makes it out to be - won't we admit all to join this country club we've made Christianity out to be?

The work of salvation is totally a work of God - today, presently - in the hearts of men. He didn't say, "I've done all I can do, now the rest is up to you!" No, "IT IS FINISHED" was the claim, and Saviour is His name.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
And that "exercise in faith" is not so high a bar (from a physical standpoint) as man makes it out to be - won't we admit all to join this country club we've made Christianity out to be?

The work of salvation is totally a work of God - today, presently - in the hearts of men. He didn't say, "I've done all I can do, now the rest is up to you!" No, "IT IS FINISHED" was the claim, and Saviour is His name.
and it may not be as low as man makes it out to be either. Christianity is exclusive-Jesus said, He is the only way which makes it exclusive. I am not preaching work righteousness but that the bible is clear that it is grace alone but our will is also responsible for our salvation and that faith must be exercised which is a work of God.........Scripture is clear, we must believe and place our trust in Him and be born again but the "exercise of faith" is the means by which the enabled sinner lays hold of salvation
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Bit of a straw-man there, Christianity is exclusive-Jesus said, He is the only way which makes it exclusive. I am not preaching work righteousness but that the bible is clear that it is grace alone but our will is also responsible for our salvation and that faith must be exercised which is a work of God.........Scripture is clear, we must believe and place our trust in Him and be born again but the "exercise of faith" is the means by which the enabled sinner lays hold of salvation
What is easily seen is straw, the treasure is hidden - the work of God is to take the least (His seed) and envelope the whole (the carnal life).

Watch and see...
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
One act of righteousness, not a single event, but generally to Christ obedience culminating in the greatest demonstration of that obedience, death on a cross...justification to all men. This cannot mean that all men will be saved, salvation is only for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Rather like the word "many" in verse 15, Paul is using "all" with two different means for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in Hebrew OT.

Dear Fundamentalist,
I see what you are saying. We know that "the many" in verse 15 can't be absolutely "all mankind" because Paul was still living and those to whom he was writing, let alone all the millions in his day who had not died yet. So "the many" is not a parallelism to "the all." In verse 19 the many is due to Christ not being made a sinner. The rest of the many were made sinners. However, in verse 18 absolutely "all" were condemned due to what Adam did. Christ was condemned to death due to what Adam did as were all mankind.

The parallel is "even as . . . thus also."

"Consequently, then, even as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying." For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
(Romans 5:18-19 CLV)

Paul is saying, If all mankind can be made sinners due to what Adam did, and we were, then fair is fair. . . all mankind can be made righteous due to what Christ did and they will be.

The Bible says We are justified and made righteous through Christ's faith. It is what He did that saves us, not what we do.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Paul is saying, If all mankind can be made sinners due to what Adam did, and we were, then fair is fair. . . all mankind can be made righteous due to what Christ did and they will be.

The Bible says We are justified and made righteous through Christ's faith. It is what He did that saves us, not what we do.
I agree somewhat but scripture is CLEAR AS DAY! One must exercise their faith to receive salvation God has given by His grace. Paul knew that and preached it over and over again.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I agree somewhat but scripture is CLEAR AS DAY! One must exercise their faith to receive salvation God has given by His grace. Paul knew that and preached it over and over again.
We are justified through Christ's faith.

Rom 3:22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."

Because we believe does not mean the rest of mankind won't.

Remember, we've been GIVEN faith. It did not originally reside in us. God put the faith in us.

But mankind's salvation actually rests upon Christ's faith, not ours.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:31 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,476,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
We are justified through Christ's faith.

Rom 3:22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."

Because we believe does not mean the rest of mankind won't.

Remember, we've been GIVEN faith. It did not originally reside in us. God put the faith in us.

But mankind's salvation actually rests upon Christ's faith, not ours.
Gafiltafish!.......this is not works, this is scriptural. We must exercise our faith in God; has given us so as we the sinner can lay hold to salvation. We just don't sit there and do nothing, by our fruits we are known, faith without works is dead. We have to do something!
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