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Ironically . . . this is an excellent analogy for the true situation . . . BOTH views are true. Jesus achieved the necessary "salvation" of us ALL (our entire species) enabling us to have eternal life. It cannot be lost. BUT . . . we are not free of obligation to do our part . . . and it is the success or failure with which we do so that determines what kind of eternal life we will have. (There is NO Hell or ET or annihilation . . . but there are "consequences" determined by our level of success or failure to achieve "love of God and each other.")
Wow.. when you put it that way it really does seem as if Mike is saying that satan is equal in power to God.
And apparently satan wins because if you ask a lot of the people who believe the same way (and I think there is a thread on just that) if there are more souls in heaven or hell they will tell you most definitely there are more souls in hell. This is to make for themselves a sort of clique or elite among men.. however it also states what you point out.. that hell is a more successful place than heaven thus God is less powerful than satan...
It is my belief that God does not create garbage. He does not create/organize spirit bodies in His own image and likeness knowing that He's going to throw them into a firepit and leave them to barbeque quivering in constant pain there forever! If He's all knowing then He'd abort or whatever to prevent that from happening if there was any sense or justice or love whatsoever to Mike's doctrine (and there is none!)
God's Plan of Salvation is very good, it's highly successful. He doesn't take away our freedom to chose good or evil and He won't force anyone to heaven. But there's no way in h... that Satan is going to be more successful than God!!
It's not just a little elite group of puffed up deceived people who are going to heaven (though most of them will likely be among them regardless because many of them DO the right things anyway.) God's the winner, it's going to be almost everybody who made it as far as mortality going to heaven, at some level, in some mansion. How obedient they were, how much they loved and tolerated each other, how they judged each other, is going to determine to what mansion and what level of heaven they are going to be initially assigned.
In my belief, at death our immortal spirits fully awake and aware go to a temporary world of spirits while they await their resurrection, either to the Paradise part or to the Prison part depending on how we lived our lives. And there those in both places who never had a chance in their mortal lives to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ presented in a persuasive positive loving manner will be taught the gospel that way by missionaries who did have that chance and chose righteousness. They can then chose to accept or reject God's Plan of Salvation for all of His children that was made possible by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
God is loving. God is just. God is no respecter of persons. ALL of His children will have a level playing ground, an equal chance at heaven. As for judgment, we'll be judged by how well we kept the moral laws with eternal consequences attached that we knew...
----- "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23: 43
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven." 2 Corinthians 12: 2
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." 1 Corinthians 15: 40-41
Hmmm, I am not sure if I agree with this Mike. Sorry, but to once be saved and taste the heavenly and then truly decide to not believe kind of makes me think that person was never really saved at all. If that is the case than the Eternal Security doesn't apply. I just have a problem with telling people to believe in Christ and then also tell them that they don't have to be obedient because whatever...you are going to Heaven someday anyway so oh well party until the lights go out...who cares? Right? Paul warns against this in the scripture.
To get to the point here, I think we are missing balance in this discussion and a huge aspect of Christianity. While I do agree that we can't do anything to Save ourselves I am not sure I agree with the part about renouncing the Lord and still keeping our salvation because I don't think it is possible to do that because if we are sealed with the Holy Spirit than it would be impossible to denounce the Lord. Once again WATCH YOUR WORDING. Doesn't the bible say to work out your salvation daily? And the bible also says that Faith without Works is dead. What does that mean? Just curious bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Well, a true believer is someone who has believed in Christ for salvation. Now what does 'believe' mean? It means that on hearing and understanding the Gospel, understanding that the issue in salvation is that man can not save himself by his own efforts, but can only be saved as a result of relying on the finished work of Christ on the Cross, which of course includes His resurrection, that you accept that fact. Believing in Christ means that you are relying on, depending on, confident in the fact that the work of Christ on the cross is what secures your salvation. And it means that you want to have a relationship with God and are coming to God through Christ.
Believing in Christ does not simply mean that you know that He went to the Cross and died for you, without really understanding what is involved. If a person hears the Gospel and does something like inviting Christ into his heart and thinks he still has to do works of some sort, like being baptized or joining a church, or making a public confession, or giving up something, that person has not believed in Christ for salvation and is not saved. Or again, if a person understands that Christ died for him, but his attitude is ''so what,'' then obviously that person is not saved. To be saved requires a complete absence of works on your part, and a complete reliance on the work of Christ on your behalf.
A person can be a believer and can advance to some level of spiritual growth, and can then for what ever reason, do a complete 180 degree turn around and rebel against God and lose faith in God and can start sinning until the cows come home, and he is still saved. He cannot lose his salvation.
Solomon for a large part of his adult life turned away from God and pursued all the human ways of trying to find happiness. He later turned back to God, but during that time in his life when he had set God aside, he did not lose his salvation. He only came under divine discipline.
A person can truly believe in Christ, and then for whatever reason decide that he no longer believes in Christ, and die in that state of unbelief. But because he at one point in his life did believe in Christ, he is still saved. Once you are born into the family of God, you remain in the family of God. He does not cast you out. Whatever you as a believer do in disobedience to God, is handled as a family matter. Hebrews 12:6 ''For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.''
There is no such thing in being overly gracious when it is God's grace that is being referred to. It is one hundred percent by the grace of God that we are initially saved, and it is one hundred percent by the grace of God that our salvation is maintained by God. Now, having said that, God does require that one initial act of faith in Christ for salvation. But the Bible makes it clear that faith is not a work as some people erroneously claim.
Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift from God, 9) not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
A human father may disown his son for some reason, but the believers heavenly Father will never disown him for any reason. For such is the nature of God.
Now as a believer, you should absolutely desire to grow up spiritually. A believer should want to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. That is why God leaves us on this earth after salvation. Most believers don't grow up. Most believers depart from this life without ever having learned very much about God and His plan for man. And they will lose out on the eternal rewards that they otherwise would have had. But they are still saved. They will still be in the presence of the Lord forever. And they will be happy.
God created satan. Satan is worse than Garbage. It appears God even gave the angels free will.
Yes, Satan may resemble garbage now but only because he freely chose to reject Father's proposed Plan of Salvation and wanted to force everyone back to heaven. And of course, he'd get the supposed glory for such a feat.
We, God's spirit children made in His image and likeness, were so happy when Father offered His Plan of Salvation that would give us a chance to 'grow up' and become like Him that we shouted for joy. But one third of our spirit brothers and sisters followed Lucifer and were cast out of heaven never to get a physical body. Each of us born to this earth was faithful and obedient to God in our premortal existence.
------- "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38: 7
The Bible presents the concept that mankind had a preparation period prior to mortal birth. The Lord said to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5), and the "Preacher" asserted "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). In other scriptures, such as Alma 13:3, it is written that priests were "called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works."
The Apostle Paul wrote: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9). In this scripture Paul personalizes the role of Heavenly Father as not just the Creator, but as the Father of our spirits. Since he is our Father, it is completely consistent that we would have been with him before coming to the earth. This personalization is further supported in Acts 17:29 where men and women are referred to as “... the offspring of God...”; in Psalms 82:6 where we are referred to as “... children of the most high...”; and in Deuteronomy 14:1 where we are referred to as “... children of the LORD your God.”
Here's a link to an interesting scholarly article about the topic:
Yes, Satan may resemble garbage now but only because he freely chose to reject Father's proposed Plan of Salvation and wanted to force everyone back to heaven. And of course, he'd get the supposed glory for such a feat.
We, God's spirit children made in His image and likeness, were so happy when Father offered His Plan of Salvation that would give us a chance to 'grow up' and become like Him that we shouted for joy. But one third of our spirit brothers and sisters followed Lucifer and were cast out of heaven never to get a physical body. Each of us born to this earth was faithful and obedient to God in our premortal existence.
------- "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38: 7
The Bible presents the concept that mankind had a preparation period prior to mortal birth. The Lord said to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5), and the "Preacher" asserted "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). In other scriptures, such as Alma 13:3, it is written that priests were "called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works."
The Apostle Paul wrote: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9). In this scripture Paul personalizes the role of Heavenly Father as not just the Creator, but as the Father of our spirits. Since he is our Father, it is completely consistent that we would have been with him before coming to the earth. This personalization is further supported in Acts 17:29 where men and women are referred to as “... the offspring of God...”; in Psalms 82:6 where we are referred to as “... children of the most high...”; and in Deuteronomy 14:1 where we are referred to as “... children of the LORD your God.”
Here's a link to an interesting scholarly article about the topic:
Yes, Satan may resemble garbage now but only because he freely chose to reject Father's proposed Plan of Salvation and wanted to force everyone back to heaven. And of course, he'd get the supposed glory for such a feat.
We, God's spirit children made in His image and likeness, were so happy when Father offered His Plan of Salvation that would give us a chance to 'grow up' and become like Him that we shouted for joy. But one third of our spirit brothers and sisters followed Lucifer and were cast out of heaven never to get a physical body. Each of us born to this earth was faithful and obedient to God in our premortal existence.
------- "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38: 7
The Bible presents the concept that mankind had a preparation period prior to mortal birth. The Lord said to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5), and the "Preacher" asserted "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). In other scriptures, such as Alma 13:3, it is written that priests were "called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works."
The Apostle Paul wrote: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9). In this scripture Paul personalizes the role of Heavenly Father as not just the Creator, but as the Father of our spirits. Since he is our Father, it is completely consistent that we would have been with him before coming to the earth. This personalization is further supported in Acts 17:29 where men and women are referred to as “... the offspring of God...”; in Psalms 82:6 where we are referred to as “... children of the most high...”; and in Deuteronomy 14:1 where we are referred to as “... children of the LORD your God.”
Here's a link to an interesting scholarly article about the topic:
Interesting... it took you only three minutes to find and read what I had to say, click the link, read the article, decide it's not for you, and type and post your response. Sure wish I was that efficient.
No God Created the most beautiful angel of all time "Lucifer" that chose with His own free will to disobey God, usurp authority and thus become evil. Lucifer became Satan (the devil) by his own chose..and it wasn't God's chose for him to make that decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgy1961
God created satan.
Satan is worse than Garbage.
It appears God even gave the angels free will.
Yes on these things we differ.. I don't believe in satan or in angels fallen or otherwise... I realize not everyone agrees with that.
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