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I would question the idea of reconcile having one meaning. As the angels and the devil were outside of the creation of the world they can not be reconciled. I have seen you quote alot and throw out words, but maybe you tend to read to deeply? Christ came in the form of man to reconcile man. The devil is not a man, nor are the angels. I can honestly say in my travels I have never seen anyone reconcile the devil. Of course from your tone you might imply I am brainwashed or something. I would really rethink this one.
Tone? What tone?
If you want to debate the scripture then debate the scripture and not your opinion of me or what others say ...
You said Christ only came to reconcile men ...
The scriptures i quoted say that all things which God created will be reconciled to god, whether visible or invisible ... Do you know any invisible humans? Or any humans that live in the heavens?
You wrote ...
Quote:
As the angels and the devil were outside of the creation of the world they can not be reconciled
The angels are in fact created beings and are a part of the created universe. There is nothing beside God which is outside of the creation. Where do you get that the angels are not a part of Gods creation?
I understand that you may feel the way many other Christians feel ... That is to say that perhaps you do not want the fallen angels to be saved. Perhaps You want them to be damned for ever.
Is Satan our enemy? Are we not supposed to love and pray for our enemies?
As I figured Ironmaw you point to how other Christians feel. As I do not see this in myself I would make the point that you feel how many want Christianity to be. You are in fact in the majority with these statements. We want sin and evil to be accepted. We want to do things our way. I point to your tone not because it was offensive, but your wording speaks volumes to what you say. I am but a short time here, but have read almost everything I can get my eyes on and truthfully I see your tone as very pious and maybe condescending. I speak out of immense respect as I am one who merely choose's to serve he who saved me
Let me give you something to think on. I once was evil, so evil that my short witness I have on one post does not do it justice. To the depths I sunk to where one could not come back from you would think. But here I am and now I see. I was born in Sin I could not understand it, but I was. Christ gave me a chance to overcome it. I was brought back from oblivion. I was reconciled.
The Devil was created in perfection. He knew sin and literally saw the face of God as did his fallen angels. They knew God as you and I have never seen him. He needs no one to pray for him as his sin was in front of us face. Or am I to assume like him you knew God and the Bible as you came from the womb as when God formed him? As Im sure you have read Ezekiel 28 Im sure you can see the reference to the devil. I didnt need anyone to tell me this the first time I read the Bible I saw it myself. Its right there. It is interesting to see at the end of Ezekiel the last sentence speaks volumes. Ill leave it to you to find.
I have seen your posts and I am sure you are a learned man. However in humility sir I beg you rethink this issue. Take time. Do not be quick to preach false doctrine for you may lead astray. Loving Satan is nothing new under the sun. Do not think you have had some epiphany. It has been done since the dawn of man. Be cautious in using the word of the Lord. There is no place for diploma's or dictionarys in heaven.
As I figured Ironmaw you point to how other Christians feel. As I do not see this in myself I would make the point that you feel how many want Christianity to be. You are in fact in the majority with these statements. We want sin and evil to be accepted. We want to do things our way. I point to your tone not because it was offensive, but your wording speaks volumes to what you say. I am but a short time here, but have read almost everything I can get my eyes on and truthfully I see your tone as very pious and maybe condescending. I speak out of immense respect as I am one who merely choose's to serve he who saved me
Let me give you something to think on. I once was evil, so evil that my short witness I have on one post does not do it justice. To the depths I sunk to where one could not come back from you would think. But here I am and now I see. I was born in Sin I could not understand it, but I was. Christ gave me a chance to overcome it. I was brought back from oblivion. I was reconciled.
The Devil was created in perfection. He knew sin and literally saw the face of God as did his fallen angels. They knew God as you and I have never seen him. He needs no one to pray for him as his sin was in front of us face. Or am I to assume like him you knew God and the Bible as you came from the womb as when God formed him? As Im sure you have read Ezekiel 28 Im sure you can see the reference to the devil. I didnt need anyone to tell me this the first time I read the Bible I saw it myself. Its right there. It is interesting to see at the end of Ezekiel the last sentence speaks volumes. Ill leave it to you to find.
I have seen your posts and I am sure you are a learned man. However in humility sir I beg you rethink this issue. Take time. Do not be quick to preach false doctrine for you may lead astray. Loving Satan is nothing new under the sun. Do not think you have had some epiphany. It has been done since the dawn of man. Be cautious in using the word of the Lord. There is no place for diploma's or dictionarys in heaven.
Your understanding is traditional as far as I can tell from so few words. I was raised fundamentalist. I believed in eternal torment most of my life. I became convicted of the error of the doctrine of eternal torment, and i can only bare witness of mine own convictions. I am only to aware of the way many Christians feel as i was raised in the church and have witnessed the most heinous aspects of organized Christianity and the sanctimonious attitudes of many men and women who are supposed to live with love for their neighbors and enemies.
I do not expect anyone to understand overnight these things as it took me the the better part of thirty years to finally realize what i believe to be the truth of the gospel that has been purposefully concealed and from the laity by megalomaniacal theocrats during the past 1400 years.
I could quote hundreds of verses in the bible that speak of the final restitution of all things, but until your heart and mind are opened to the truth of these things it would be pointless for me to try and convince you.
You have been lied to by the traditional orthodox fundamentalist leaders of the past and present, in order that they might control you by fear using pagan doctrines that were never a part of the original gospel to begin with.
I am persuaded that one day you will discover the truth along with all creation, humanity and angels alike. Maybe you should think about it as well. The fact is i rarely think of anything else. I am not trying to win brownie points from anyone and i am certainly not concerned with the opinion of others concerning my beliefs. I believe what is am convicted of by my conscience and what my exhaustive studies have led me to believe.
I am here only to represent the truth i have been given, not to convince anyone of it. I am only testifying of the word of reconciliation as a witness.
You have learned the orthodox fundamentalist teachings, perhaps you should challenge what you have been taught and investigate the matter through prayer and study.
Below are a few links to some material that may help you to at least see things from another perspective, if you would be willing to test what you believe by critical investigation of the matter instead of believing only what you learn from whatever church or denomination you belong to.
Starting from the top of the list you will find less exhaustive studies ... As you progress down the list you will find more exhaustive studies. I hope you take the time to truly investigate these things. If you want to know the whole truth, then you certainly should examine these things instead of closing your mind to them from the start.
I hope you take the time to look through these writings. The last two links in particular, though extremely exhaustive and not for the layman, are very compelling and powerful E-books that reveal many things you will never hear in most churches or taught by most preachers. Things that reveal many of the problems with the orthodox teachings of the contemporary church.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-08-2010 at 02:52 AM..
I will read your links if you make a deal with me. By the way what makes you think I am a fundamentalist? Does the Lord see such terms? Is there a topic on that? Amusing since there are findamentalist everythings on this planet, but I digress...
Call out the Devil and his angels. You alone face him and witness the truth in Christ Jesus. Ask him to kneel and pray for forgiveness. Come before the Throne of God with his repentance and humility. Let it be a sign to all men the Devil has taken Christ in his heart. Let all torments of men cease with the repentence of The Father of all Lies. Ask him to do this today. Witness to him from the depths of your 30 years of knowledge. Let that short period of time and knowledge weigh on the eternity hes already known. Then when its all done send me his reply. Let him reconcile to Christ with his words so that no man may face a judge and tell him The Devil made me rape that little girl. If you can do all these things then I will believe.
Let the Lord be a witness between you and I. Let this forum document my words. If I am wrong let that iniquity be found in me and let the rod of iron be upon me. But if I am not wrong then what truth is there in your links?
I have no doubt in your sincereity, again let me not challenge faith in Christ. But if God would choose to reconcile in such a matter, what need for a prophet, Christ, in fact what need for Paul?
May the Lord bless you with truth.
Last edited by Aschultz73; 01-08-2010 at 04:19 AM..
Reason: Extra note added
Well Ironmaw I couldnt sleep and since Im West Coast I decided to read some. Your words perplexed me some. Let me honestly say that while interesting it seems you have more of a problem with Roman Catholics. Honestly this is nothing new under the sun to me, but what you see in the Bible I just dont see it. Of course the last two links I have to read more, but honestly they arent to difficult at all. In fact they seem rather simple. I still stand by the deal though. I still dont see beings who literally saw the face of God having the ability to repent. In fact in browsing some of your more learned texts it seems to have evolved into that.
Here is the problem. Im sure I already see your answer coming, but here it is. Do you feel sin is a part of you? When sin occurs is it like a bug sucking blood easily swatted away or is it like removing your hand if it steals (Not that I advocate removing hands)? I see in this teaching numerious attempts to seperate responsibility and accountability. If you remove those things we have no need for Christ. I am in no way resonsible or accountable for all the women I have slept with many of which I dont know there names. Can I continue down this path? If so can I go out first thing tomorrow, there is a single girl right down the street I am very good friends with. Perhaps Ill take her for a drink and get tanked. Maybe even get some dope too. Honestly this is a serious question. If there is no consequence than what is the point of anything?
I too have questions on Hell. However it seems more people argue about what it isnt then what it is. Somewhere that I know I never want to be or see. But then again it begs the question. What is the consequence of being outside the will of God? In truth one of my favorite verses is that every knee shall bend. I abhore the idea of spouting off verses all the time, but could it not be that those who want to defend their responsibility for their sins will be silenced and upon the ground? Will they have no defense for their actions and be like the prophets of old who saw God and fell to the ground? Honestly I dont see anything new under the sun, but another attempt to point the blame for ones own actions to something else. Personally it feels like you can now blame scripture in entirity for your own sin. Can we now blame God for what we are going thru. Didnt Adam blame God for giving him the woman Eve, who was not named until after the fall of man?
On a side note is Universalist of the Unitarian or Unity Origin. If so this would be why it seems nothing new to me. My mother went that direction when she left my father for another woman. When I went into that situation and attended her church it made my flesh crawl. Just wondering there. I will continue to read more as I cant sleep tonight.
Well Ironmaw I couldnt sleep and since Im West Coast I decided to read some. Your words perplexed me some. Let me honestly say that while interesting it seems you have more of a problem with Roman Catholics. Honestly this is nothing new under the sun to me, but what you see in the Bible I just dont see it. Of course the last two links I have to read more, but honestly they arent to difficult at all. In fact they seem rather simple. I still stand by the deal though. I still dont see beings who literally saw the face of God having the ability to repent. In fact in browsing some of your more learned texts it seems to have evolved into that.
Here is the problem. Im sure I already see your answer coming, but here it is. Do you feel sin is a part of you? When sin occurs is it like a bug sucking blood easily swatted away or is it like removing your hand if it steals (Not that I advocate removing hands)? I see in this teaching numerious attempts to seperate responsibility and accountability. If you remove those things we have no need for Christ. I am in no way resonsible or accountable for all the women I have slept with many of which I dont know there names. Can I continue down this path? If so can I go out first thing tomorrow, there is a single girl right down the street I am very good friends with. Perhaps Ill take her for a drink and get tanked. Maybe even get some dope too. Honestly this is a serious question. If there is no consequence than what is the point of anything?
I too have questions on Hell. However it seems more people argue about what it isnt then what it is. Somewhere that I know I never want to be or see. But then again it begs the question. What is the consequence of being outside the will of God? In truth one of my favorite verses is that every knee shall bend. I abhore the idea of spouting off verses all the time, but could it not be that those who want to defend their responsibility for their sins will be silenced and upon the ground? Will they have no defense for their actions and be like the prophets of old who saw God and fell to the ground? Honestly I dont see anything new under the sun, but another attempt to point the blame for ones own actions to something else. Personally it feels like you can now blame scripture in entirity for your own sin. Can we now blame God for what we are going thru. Didnt Adam blame God for giving him the woman Eve, who was not named until after the fall of man?
On a side note is Universalist of the Unitarian or Unity Origin. If so this would be why it seems nothing new to me. My mother went that direction when she left my father for another woman. When I went into that situation and attended her church it made my flesh crawl. Just wondering there. I will continue to read more as I cant sleep tonight.
Christian universalism, i.e. the doctrine of universal salvation, has nothing to do with Unitarianism. The doctrine of universal salvation is that in the fullness of times God will reconcile and or restore the whole creation to harmony with himself through Christ, by faith in this life and in the ages before the reign of Christ commences on earth for the elect/believers, and through the purifying fiery judgments of God for unbelievers which will result in worship and subjection of the individual to Christ. Regardless of the means through which God saves a person(faith or judgment) it is only by the death and resurrection of Christ that the world is saved and nothing else, as Christ died for sin. That is to say that there is no other way to the father than by Christ himself.
Unitarianism basically is the belief that all religions or even the lack of any belief at all will lead to god. That is to say that unitarians do not believe that Christ is the only way to God.
Unitarianism basically is the belief that all religions or even the lack of any belief at all will lead to god. That is to say that unitarians do not believe that Christ is the only way to God.[/quote]
Thank you sir for your reply. Let me ask another question. If Universalists believe that Jesus as the only way to God as I do, but Unitarians believe there are multiple paths then what is the path of the Devil and his demons. Is this not a path as well as Unitarians believe? Honestly this is why I ask the question, because it sounds Unitarian.
In essence is the Devil not a Unitarian? He has chosen his path. He will walk it. He will accept Christ in repentence or will he do so by Christ forcing him to reconcile his sin and take a knee? Is this not Universalism? What do I miss in this mindset? Am I oversimplifying or overdoing it?
I do not mean this as a attack on your faith in Christ. It may seem this way, but in a couple days I have respect for your posts as you clearly attempt to discern and not spout things lightly. I confess I have not dealt much with this issue and appreciate your answer as it appears we have hijacked the thread so to speak LOL. I only ask in regards to salvation for the Devil and his angels you referenced. I also saw it in some of the links.
Last edited by Aschultz73; 01-09-2010 at 01:50 AM..
Reason: Forgot a sentence LOL Im tired LOL
Eph 3:10-13
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Most Christians are simply not aware of the fact that it is through our overcoming the world and tribulations in the world through Christ that God is revealing his manifold wisdom to the angels.
If you take the story of Job and compare it to this passage of scripture, you will realize that the reason God allowed Satan to test Job was not simply to amuse himself or to teach Job a lesson, but also to reveal something to Satan about his purpose in creating humanity. That is to say that both Job and Satan stood to benefit from the experience, for such is the glory of God. Satan is the accuser of the human race. He believes that we are animals unworthy of grace and glory, unworthy to be lifted up by god as sons and daughters, heirs to the power and Glory of god in all things. God allows Satan and his evil works to exist for our benefit, that through the experience of evil we are able to know the value of Good and appreciate the presence of God in our lives. Evil is not some sort of cosmic accident, or some sort of divine mistake. God doesn't make mistakes ... There is a reason and a purpose and a time for everything under heaven and in the heavens. It is through Christ that the debt of all sin is paid, including the sin of the fallen angels, his sacrifice overcomes all things for all beings in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible. Yet God created the fallen angels for the very purpose that they should serve as an example to us, and we as an example to them, that together through our separate plights we might come to know the wisdom and glory of god in all things. God reconciles not only the whole world and all things to himself, but in him all things in heaven and in earth are reconciled to each other, so that in the fullness of times he might finally come to be all and in all, and that we all might at last come to be together in him.
God bless friend ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-09-2010 at 12:23 PM..
Eph 3:10-13
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Most Christians are simply not aware of the fact that it is through our overcoming the world and tribulations in the world through Christ that God is revealing his manifold wisdom to the angels.
If you take the story of Job and compare it to this passage of scripture, you will realize that the reason God allowed Satan to test Job was not simply to amuse himself or to teach Job a lesson, but also to reveal something to Satan about his purpose in creating humanity. That is to say that both Job and Satan stood to benefit from the experience, for such is the glory of God. Satan is the accuser of the human race. He believes that we are animals unworthy of grace and glory, unworthy to be lifted up by god as sons and daughters, heirs to the power and Glory of god in all things. God allows Satan and his evil works to exist for our benefit, that through the experience of evil we are able to know the value of Good and appreciate the presence of God in our lives. Evil is not some sort of cosmic accident, or some sort of divine mistake. God doesn't make mistakes ... There is a reason and a purpose and a time for everything under heaven and in the heavens. It is through Christ that the debt of all sin is paid, including the sin of the fallen angels, his sacrifice overcomes all things for all beings in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible. Yet God created the fallen angels for the very purpose that they should serve as an example to us, and we as an example to them, that together through our separate plights we might come to know the wisdom and glory of god in all things. God reconciles not only the whole world and all things to himself, but in him all things in heaven and in earth are reconciled to each other, so that in the fullness of times he might finally come to be all and in all, and that we all might at last come to be together in him.
God bless friend ...
I agree in your assessment of this, but is it not possible that while the concept of being reconciled means more than simply Saved will be Saved and Sinner will be made forced to be Saved? I have never viewed the Devil as in creation I guess. The Bible is not a book that covers the whole of the struggle between God and the Devil. If it were so could we not assert we understand the tribulations of this world. While the Devil is by no means infinite, his actions pre existed before man. Is this not the idea of free will in accepting Christ. Could it not be that sin is reconciled to God in whatever Hell is (again I dont focus on what it isnt) or that one could simply fade to oblivion?
This is why I ask on the idea of Unitarianism. Is that not what they want?They want all reconciled to God by each path? They see Christ as theirs and others as well. While you do have Christ I see no clear and obvious difference between the two. I know you have stated the difference, but do not the two paths converge before the end of all things more than at the end of all things?
My son and I are discussing this as you and I communicate. We both are finding it to be very interesting. I appreciate more on this topic.
Thank you so much for your responses! Greatly appreciated.
To further add, it's being 'sheltered' and not given the opportunity to unite with Christ that triggers my questions. As mentioned above, being born in Iraq and sheltered from Christianity, according to the bible and many Christians (I assume), I would be headed for hell. Is this right? It's hard for me to establish reasoning when I would have minimal control over uniting with Christ if I am born in another place or time.
thx
If God has predestined you to be conformed to the image of his son, He will call you and regenerate your spirit to believe...
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