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Old 12-03-2009, 03:46 PM
3,437 posts, read 322,885 times
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I agree with you that there is no eternal torment in a lake of fire hell.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

When the dead are judged they have not been resurrected - In Corinthians we are told that the resurrection of the dead is being raised in incorruption, glory, power and is a spiritual body

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:16 PM
Location: Florida
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Salvation is from death, not from torment for those who cannot die. Eternal life with torment in Hell means there is no death. The penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23), not eternal life in Hell. This passage is preached continually, but very few that preach it believe it. They preach, "The wages of sin is death," and in the same breath preach a person has a part that cannot die and the wages of sin for our deathless part of us is an eternal life of torment in Hell. Death is death, not an eternal dying but never dead. Death is not eternal life with torment.
All have sinned; the wages of sin is death. Death is God's penalty for sin. The gift of God canceled the wages of sin and gives life. It is life or death, not two kinds of life. The free gift of God is not changing one kind of life for another kind of life, or life in one place for life in another place. IT IS GIVING LIFE IN PLACE OF DEATH. This is made possible not by Christ living our life of eternal torment for us, but by Christ dying our death for us. THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS LIFE, NOT JUST A CHANGE OF ADDRESS FROM HELL TO HEAVEN FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE AND CANNOT DIE.
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" (Romans 6:23). There are two reasons why the sinner will die in this passage. (1) They will receive the wages they earned for sin, which is death. (2) Eternal life, immortality, is given only to those who are in Christ. The lost will never be given the gift of immortality.
If "the wages of sin is death"
1. Hell and an eternal life of torment are not possible
2. An immoral soul that is not subject to death is not possible
• "Shall save a soul (psukee-life or person) from death" "Will save him from death" New International Version James 5:20. The person saved is saved from death, not from eternal torment.
• "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls (life-psukee)" 1 Peter 1:9
• "Sin unto death" Romans 6:16. Not sin unto an eternal life of torment
• "What fruit then had you at that time in the things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life (at judgment). For the Wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life" Romans 6:21-23. DEATH is not a gateway to a better LIFE. Death is an "enemy" and our hope is the resurrection, never death. "For you shall be recompensed in the resurrection"(Luke 14:14), not at death
• "Be you faithful unto death (end of this life) and I will give you the crown of life (at the judgment)...shall not be hurt of the second death" ("You" not to a "part of you") Revelation 2:10. And with the world they shall "passes away" 1 John 2:17
• "For if you live after the flesh, you must die" Romans 8:13 ("You" not just a part of "you" must die)
• "We (not only a part of us) have passed out of death into life" 1 John 3:14
• Death is so sure to those not in Christ that they "abides in death" 1 John 3:14
• "If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. But now has Christ been raised from the DEAD, the first fruits of them that are asleep. For since by man came DEATH, by man came also the resurrection of the DEAD. For as in Adam all DIE, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). Christ died for our sins, not eternally tormented for our sins. Death is used of Adam, Christ and all who will die like Adam without anything to make the death of the three not to be death. Death is death, not any kind of life of those who cannot die
• In the plainest language possible, Jesus said, "If you believe not, you shall die in your sins" (John 8:21-24). Many read this passage and see, “If you believe not, your soul that cannot die is now dead.”
Those who believe in eternal torment are saying to the unsaved that they already have eternal life but will spend it in the wrong place. They are saying to the lost that they can never die but that they will live an unhappy everlasting life. They are saying the lost will be in Hell and just as alive as those in Heaven, and in no sense can the lost to be said to be dead; in no plain common sense language can the wages of sin be said to be death to an immortal being that cannot die for if it could die or if it were dead, it would not be an immortal being. They are saying that death cannot be death, but death is only a transfer of life from this realm to life in another realm. For a person to now have an immortal soul that can never die, death, particularly the second death must be changed to life.
Those who believe men are now immortal must take death out of the Bible. In all the repeatedly times Christ promised eternal life to believers, He must be made not to mean what He promised; not eternal life, but to be promising only a reward or happiness; not to us but only to a part of us that we do not know anything about what it is like, nothing about what it thinks or feels; according to what some tell us we could not even know this part of us exists if we they did not tell us about it.
"WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH," not an eternal life of torment for those who cannot ever be dead (Romans 6:23). Death is not life in a different form. Death is to be abolished at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24-26) by casting it into lake of fire. Jesus endured the wages of sin in our place so that we would not have to. CHRIST COULD NOT BE OUR SAVIOR IF THE WAGES OF SIN IS ETERNAL TORMENT. Jesus died in our place; but He did not endure eternal torment in our place, therefore, if the wages of sin were eternal torment He could not be our savior. He would not have paid our debt. He did "taste of death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9). Today's theology that death is only life in a different place and is not really death makes our salvation impossible by making the death of Christ impossible. The first lie was that you would never die, which God said was wrong.
Robert Turner says, "Sin separates us from God, and 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die.'" Florida College Annual Lectures, 1986, Page 172. Which one is he saying? (1) The soul that sins lives forever separated from God, or (2) "The soul that sins shall die." The two are a total conduction of each other and both cannot be true. Beyond any doubt, this is using a passage to teach the opposite of what it teaches, namely, the soul that shall die cannot die but lives forever.
Romans 6:21-23 is a double deathblow to the immortal soul doctrine. (1) Wages of sin is death, not eternal life with torment. (2) The gift of God is eternal life in Christ. If we have a soul that is now immortal, it now has eternal life and will always have eternal life, even if is not in Christ, even if there were no resurrection, even if Christ had not died in our place the wages of sin could not be death to a soul that cannot die.
• "For the end of these things is death...for the wages of sin is death" King James Version
• "For the outcome of these things is death...for the wages of sin is death" New American Standard
• "These things result in death...for the wages of sin is death" New International Version
• "These things only bring death...when people sin, they earn what sin pays--death" New Century Version
• "And they lead to death...sin pays off with death" Contemporary English Version
• "Things that end in eternal doom...for the wages of sin is death" New Living Translation
• "The result of those things is death...for sin pays it wage--death" Today's English Version
o There is not the slightest sign of an immortal soul that is not subject to death in this passage, if there were it would make it completely wrong.
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:50 PM
1 posts, read 2,025 times
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Default A Grpwomg Opposition To The Doctrine Of Hell

A growing opposition to the doctrine of Hell in the church of Christ

- The Horrors Of Hell
A growing opposition to the doctrine of Hell in the church of Christ
Perhaps unknown to many members of the church of Christ, there is a growing opposition to the doctrine of Hell which has been taught from it’s pulpits for many years. Most of it’s preachers who do come out against it just say nothing about it.Perhaps the three most detailed writing were by Homer Hailey, Edward Fudge and William Robert West. of the man of sin. It was a mystery, that is, something yet hidden. Does already work.
1. HOMER HAILEY: “God’s Judgments and Punishments” 2003, Nevada Publications. Hailey was a teacher at Abilene Christian College, Florida College where he was dean of Bible for many years. He is the anther of many books and articles; some were in the “Gospel Guardian,” now “Truth Magazine,” and “Bible Banner.” He was one of the best know and most loved preacher and teachers in the church of Christ. I do not think it is now in print.
2. EDWARD FUDGE: Was also a writer for “Truth Magazine” and numerous other periodicals. His book, “The Fire That Consumes” has gone through many printing and has been in print for many years.
3. WILLIAM ROBER WEST: His book, “Unconditional Immortality Or Resurrection Of The Dead” is now in print in it’s third update available at: Product Detail In my view this is the best researched and detailed book on this subject. He does a complete and scholarly analysis of several topics. It is available free on line at http://www.robertwr.com/resurrection.pdf and has had more than 505,000 downloads and growing daily. ALSO AVAILABLE AT: Immortality and Resurrection by William West (http://www.feedbooks.com/userbook/5274 - broken link)
4. MOSES E. LORD: One of the best-known preachers and writers in the church of Christ. "'For the wages of sin is death' It always pays. Whether the sinner stipulates for his wages or not, he is sure to receive it. What the wages of sin are, the apostle here tells us: it is eternal death. How astounding the fact that so many should serve for such a reward!" Commentary on Romans, Page 218, 1875, Gospel Light Publishing Company. Also his book "Do The Holy Scriptures Teach The Endlessness Of Future Punishment?"C. R. GRESHAM: "It is generally conceived that there is little about resurrection or after-life in what the Jews called the Torah...and the Former Prophets...Death is seen as the end, the destruction of human existence." Page 25. "Man's soul is primarily his vitality, his life, not some separate part of a person that has independent existence and an immortal nature, God's spirit (His breath, His power) creates and sustains all living things (Ps 33:6; 104:29-30), even the human spirit (Zech 12:1), but never is man's soul or spirit seen as an immortal part of man surviving death." Page 40. "The widespread misunderstanding that the New Testament teaches the immortality of the soul...If one recognizes that death and eternal life in the New Testament are always bound up the Christ-event, then it becomes clear that for the first Christians the soul is not intrinsically immortal, but rather became so only through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Page 275. "What The Bible Says About Resurrection" The College Press, 1983.
5. SAMUEL DAWSON: "You may be surprised to learn that most, if not all, of our popular concepts of Hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers...None of our concepts of Hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! You know how indignant we get at the mention of purgatory-we know that's not in the Bible. You may also find out that our popular concepts of Hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism" "Jesus' Teaching On Hell," Page 13. A free copy of this book at: www.gospelthemes.com.
6. JERRY CROSS: "When Jesus was on earth he didn't speak of immortality, but rather of eternal life. The Greeks taught that the soul had a natural and innate quality to enable it to pass through death and resist corruption. But, Jesus taught that our 'immortality' is anchored in a life-relationship with God. Jesus was a teacher of 'eternal life,' but Plato of the 'immortality of the soul.' Today these expressions are often confusingly used as synonyms. Yet, they spring from two different sources, one from Greek philosophy, the other from New Testament Christianity... It is very easy to read the term 'soul' or 'spirit' in the English Bible and impart modern western philosophical beliefs into the terms. With Plato and (much later) Descartes, Western thinking became very much dualistic in its view of man. A person is composed, according to this view, of material, extended, substance (body) and immaterial, non-extended, substance (mind). The soul is the imperishable element that is housed in a bodily prison. Therefore, when western man hears the term 'soul,' he thinks of that element of himself that is confined within his body that is destined to live forever. The presentation of 'soul' in the Hebrew Old Testament is quite different however...the Old Testament presents man as an 'animated body' which is a 'complex of parts, drawing life and activity from a breath-soul, which has no existence apart from the body'" Magnolia Bible College 1984 Lectures, Page 48 and 49.
7. CURTIS DICKINSON: "There is not one scripture to support the idea that man is an immortal soul living for the moment in a temple of clay, and that when the body dies the man goes on living...It might come as a surprise to some to know that the term immortal is never used in scripture in connection with soul or man's spirit" "What The Bible Teaches About Immortality And Future Punishment," Page 8 and 9.
8. ELIAS SMITH: Also one of the best know-preachers and writers in the church of Christ. Often referred to as "Elder" Elias Smith. "This year, in June, my attention was called to think of the real state of the wicked after the last judgment. Before this time, I had taken for truth the old pagan doctrine of 'eternal misery' for the wicked. In June, 1804, being in Mr. Holmes' bookstore, in Boston, I asked him if he had any new publications. He handed me Evan's Sketch. On opening the book my eyes first fixed on the word, 'destructionists.' I read one page, and concluded, people who held the wicked would be destroyed, were in strange error, as no such thing ever before entered my mind. I bought the book. Often after that the destruction of the wicked would pass through my mind, though I supposed eternal misery was recorded in the Bible. In April 1805, I concluded one day to take my Bible and concordance, and find eternal misery, and not have my mind any longer troubled about destruction. I examined the words misery, miserable, and miserably; and found there was not one place in the Bible where the word was used to describe the state of man beyond death. Next I looked for the word torment, and found that was limited, and that there was no torment mentioned beyond the day of judgment. I then looked at the words destroy, destruction, death, second death, perish, consumed, perdition, burnt up, end, etc. I examined the similitudes used to describe the end of the wicked, such as chaff and stubble burnt up; dry trees cast into the fire, and tares burnt up; the fat of lambs consumed, whirlwinds, a dream, and noise. All these things proved to me that at the last judgment, the wicked would be punished with everlasting destruction, which would be their end. My mind was settled upon the subject; but concluded to keep my discovery to myself; as the people were almost distracted with having so many new things; such as that God was one and not three, and that all rules but the Bible was useless, and that salvation was free for all. My first preaching and writing disturbed the clergy and the wicked; the next disturbed the Baptists, and I was about certain, if this were known, it would disturb my brethren with whom I was connected. I kept it back as long as duty would suffer me, and was constrained at last to make it known, or preach no more. It made some stir, but people bore it as well as could be expected. Soon after preaching it, I wrote and published five sermons upon the subject, which has never been answered to this day." The Life, Conversion, Preaching, Travel and Sufferings of Elias Smith, 1886, Page 347JOHN SCOTT: "Genesis 2:7 is the classic statement of the uniting of flesh and spirit. Here, we have the creature of flesh and bone created from the dust and then brought into a living existence by the Lord blowing into man's nostrils the breath of life. The phrase 'became a living soul' is the same Hebrew phrase used in verse 19 referring to 'every living creature,' that is, to the beasts and birds as other forms of life. In this sense of the word then, man is not distinguished from the animal world as far as life is concerned by the use of these special terms ...The nehphesh may even be said to die [Judges 16:30], but nehphesh is never used of the spirit of the dead; in fact, nowhere is the suggestion made that the soul survives the man whose life it was in the Old Testament." Harding Graduate School Lectures, 1971, Pages 130-131, Gospel Advocate Company.
9. ROGER DICKSON: "A general meaning would be that the soul has reference to any animate being of life that has sense perception ... thus, the soul would be the life principle of an individual." Page 45, "Life, Death and Beyond" Biblical Research Library.
10. AL MAXEY: "The Maxey-Thrasher Debate" A debate on the eternal destiny of the wicked between two Gospel preachers. "'Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living SOUL/being' (Genesis 2:7). Some traditionalists virtually equate this last phrase (living soul) with 'immortal soul.' But, that is NOT what the passage says. God put breath within this body and the body became a living being. The exact same words are used of animals in the Scriptures. Further, it doesn't say man was GIVEN a soul. It says man BECAME a soul. Big difference!" Free on the web at: Maxey - Thrasher Debate
11. ROBERT DOZIER: "Dozier-Johnson Debate" The eternal destiny of the wicked by a Gospel preacher. "But Gehenna was all about destroying that which was dumped there. There were not cries of never ending conscious pain coming out of the bodies cast there. No conscious torment, just destruction of trash, carcasses of animals, and some dead human bodies. It was all about death and destruction. That is what those who heard Jesus speak of Gehenna would think of. Jesus spoke of the wicked and lost as being cast into Gehenna AFTER God killed them (Luke 12:5)." Free on the web at: Yahoo! Groups
12. ROBERT L. WHITESIDE: Writer and editor of the “Gospel Advocate” for many years. "If you serve sin, you need not doubt as to what your wages are to be, nor as to whether you will be paid in full. The final reward for your service to sin is eternal death." A New Commentary On Paul's Letter To The Saints At Rome, Page 142, 1945.
13. E. M. ZERR: "It denotes, therefore, that a life devoted to the service of sin will earn or merit the wages of death, not physical death, for all have to go through that, but the second death, designated in Revelation 21:8." Bible Commentary, Volume 5, Page 360, Copyrighted 1952 by E. M Zerr.
ASHLEY S. JOHNSON: "The Resurrection And The Future Life" 1913.
14. E. D. SLOUGH "Indictment Of Eternal Torment."
15. OREN ORAHOOD and many others in the restoration movement and after.
In the next few years look for this opposition to grow in the churches of Christ and the Christian Church.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:23 PM
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Both are used in the Old and New Testament.
1). Weeping for miseries and grief, both for personal miseries, and miseries and grief as a nation are used to often to list them, use any good concordance. It is used in the New Testament the same way it was in the Old Testament. See Matthew 2:18; Mark 5:28; Luke 7:38; 8:52: John 11:33; 20:11 Acts 9:39; 21:13; Philippians 3:18; James 5:1. The weeping is the Jews when they see Israel being cast out as God's chosen people, and Jerusalem and the Temple being destroyed, and the end of their national identity. See Matthew 24, Daniel 9, and 10.
2). Gnashing of teeth shows anger and rage of the persons gnashing their teeth, not pain, and is used in both the Old and New Testament. "They hiss and gnash the teeth" Lamentations 2:16; Psalm 35:16; Micah 3:5. Used the same way in the New Testament. "And they gnashed on him with their teeth" (Acts 7:54). Those who stoned Stephen were angry with him, not in pain; they were not dead and in Hell, they were alive and on this earth. If gnashing of teeth were in Hell, as many teach it is, whom are they going to gnash with their teeth, each other? Does anyone believe some in Hell will be angry with others in Hell, and will gnash on them with their teeth? The gnashing of teeth is the anger and rage of the Jews towards those doing the destroying (the Roman army), and maybe even toward God for letting the destroying be happening. Gnashing of teeth is because of anger or rage. It is not because of the person doing the gnashing of his or her teeth are being tormented in Hell. In the Bible in both the Old and the New Testament, gnashing of teeth is always because of anger of the person doing the gnashing. It is misused today to show those being tormented in "Hell" are gnashing their teeth because of their own pain.
• In the Old Testament: Gnashing of teeth is because of anger on the part of the one doing the gnashing.
• In the New Testament: Gnashing of teeth is changed by those who believe in Hell to be a person in Hell gnashing his or her teeth because of pain.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth are two different things, which are sometimes both found together, but most often are not together. Neither one ever occurs in the same passages with hades or Gehenna. That either one will be in Hell is an assumption that is preached over and over; weeping and gnashing of teeth is usually associated with Hell, but in fact have absolutely no connection with Gehenna in the Bible. Could an immaterial, invisible part of a person gnash its teeth on another immaterial, invisible part of a person?
The Centurion Gentile Matthew 8:5-13: "And when he was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lying in the house sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And he said unto him, I will come and heal him. And the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man under authority, having under myself soldiers: and I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my servant, Do this, and he does it. And when Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go your way; as you have believed, (so) be it done unto you. And the servant was healed in that hour." Where Matthews says, “sons of the kingdom” Luke says, “and yourselves cast forth without” (Luke 13:24-30). At that time the Jews were the sons of the kingdom and because to their rejection of Christ were “cast forth without.” After seeing the faith of this Gentile, Jesus says the Gentiles will sit in the kingdom, and the sons (Jews) will be cast forth. The same as at the marriage feast (above), the Jews, because they rejected Christ as their king, they were cast out of the kingdom. The church, not Israel, is now God's kingdom. Those who teach Hell read the prophecies of Christ about the judgment of Israel in AD 70 and move the weeping and gnashing of teeth to Hell after the Judgment Day is over. They have not found one passage that says anything about the lost after the judgment. Nothing can happen to nothing. After the second death there could be nothing said, for there will be nothing to say anything about. There is this life, then the first death, a resurrection to life from the first death, then the second death for the lost, but nothing is said about a third life for the lost after the second death. They need something to prove eternal life in their Hell, and try to make it look as if weeping and gnashing of teeth could only be because of God is eternally tormenting the lost in Hell; although both weeping and gnashing of teeth are used throughout the Old Testament and those who believe in Hell do not believe weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Old Testament have any reference to a time of punishment after the Judgment Day, but they assume that in the New Testament both are used in reference to punishment in Hell after the Judgment Day. Weeping and gnashing of teeth has a reference to Hell only when they want or need them to. Even according to those who believe in Hell, no one is cast out of Heaven, but if this "weeping and the gnashing of teeth" is changed and made to be after the judgment in Hell, it is the "sons of the kingdom" that are (1) weeping and gnashing their teeth (2) and are cast into the outer darkness. In using this passage to prove the outer darkness is Hell it makes some be in Heaven, but it makes them be cast out of Heaven into Hell after the judgment. If "and yourselves cast forth without" is cast into Hell where those who believe in Hell say the "weeping and gnashing of tenth" will be, then this makes those from the east and west go to Heaven after the Judgment Day. If this were after the coming of Christ, it would have some going into Heaven, and some being cast out of Heaven after the kingdom has been delivered up to God; therefore, after the judgment. This is more than those trying to prove Hell want to prove, for they do not think any will be cast out of Heaven after the judgment, and no one who is in Heaven after the judgment will go to Hell, so why is this passage used in a way that makes it prove there will be some cast out of Heaven into Hell after the judgment?
• If this "weeping and the gnashing of teeth" is changed and made to be in Hell after the judgment, then it is the “sons of the kingdom” that are:
o Weeping and gnashing their teeth.
o Are cast into the outer darkness.
o If the "weeping and the gnashing of teeth" is because of being in Hell, then the “sons of the kingdom” would have to be in Hell.
• Then after the judgment, “Many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
o If this were after the judgment, where will they come from? From Hell or where?
• If this is (1) the Jews that rejected Christ, (2) or Christians that become unfaithful and are cast our or the light of the word of God into the darkness of the world without God, there is no way that a person not with a white robe washed white by the blood of Christ could be in the kingdom after it has been delivered up to God in Heaven, therefore; this is speaking of something in the life time of a person while he or she is alive, not of something after death or after the resurrection.
J. W. McGarvey, Matthew 8:12: "And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of Heaven (Jesus here predicts the conversion of the Gentiles, since that fact is suggested to him by the faith of this centurion. The east and the west represent the extreme points of the compass in the directions in which the world was most thickly inhabited. But Jesus refers rather to spiritual separation than to geographical distances–Mal. i. 11; Isa. xlix. 19; Jer. xvi. 19; Zech. viii. 22.) 12 But The Sons Of The Kingdom (The child of anything in Hebrew phraseology expressed the idea of special property which one has in the thing specified, as, for instance, children of disobedience (Eph. ii. 2). Jesus here means, then, the Jews, to whom the kingdom belonged by hereditary descent--Rom. ix. 4) shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (In this paragraph Christ's kingdom is set forth under the simile of a great feast, a familiar simile with Jesus (Matt. xxvi. 29; Luke xxii. 30). The Jews were accustomed to speak of the delights of the Messianic kingdom as a feast with the patriarchs (Luke xiv. 15), but lost sight of the fact that Gentiles should share in its cheer and fellowship (Isa. xxv. 6). Marriage feasts and other great feasts of the Jews were usually held in the evening. Inside, therefore, there would be joy and light and gladness, but outside there would be darkness and disappointment, tears and bitter self-reproach (Matt. xxv. 10-13). The despised outcasts should be brought in and placed at the festal board, while the long-invited guests-the natural and fleshly heirs of Abraham's invitation-would be excluded (Matt. xxi. 43)" The Fourfold Gospel, page 272, 1914, Standard Publishing Company, church of Christ.
J. W. McGarvey, Luke 13:28-30: "There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold (little as you may think it), they are last who shall be first, and they are first who shall be last. (A familiar proverb of Christ's (Matt. xix. 30; xx. 10), to be interpreted by such passages as Matt. xxi. 31 and Rom. ix. 30, 31. The Jew who thought the Gentile had no hope at all, and that he himself was sure of salvation, would be surprised to find that his opinion was the very reverse of the real fact as time developed it)." The Fourfold Gospel, 1914, Standard Publishing Company, church of Christ. The Jews were cast forth out of the kingdom, but nothing is said about casting into "Hell."
B. W. Johnson, Matthew 8:12: "But the children of the kingdom. The Jews, the natural children of Abraham, the 'Father of the faithful,' heirs of the promises made to him. Cast out because they rejected the Messiah, in whom all the promises center. Into outer darkness. The history of the Jews for 1,800 years has been a fulfillment of this passage.” The People's New Testament With Notes, Gospel Light Publishing Company, church of Christ.
H. Leo Boles on Matthew 8:11-12: “The ‘sons of the kingdom’ were the Jews; they were heirs of the kingdom according to the promise; to them it was first offered, and it was because they rejected it that they were to ‘be cast forth into the outer darkness.’ While the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah, the Gentiles would accept him as their Savior; this prophecy of Jesus has literally been fulfilled. These Jews were ‘sons of the kingdom’…while at the same time others, Gentiles, shall be enjoying a feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ‘The weeping and the gnashing’ represent intense suffering; they shall weep because they have lost their favor with God, and shall gnash their teeth because others have obtained it.” A Commentary On The Gospel According To Matthew, 1954, Gospel Advocate Company, church of Christ.
James Burton Coffman, Matthew 8:10-12: “The centurion’s faith contrasted sharply with the lack of it in the Jewish leaders who, although they should have been the first to recognize Christ and believe on him, were nevertheless his carping critics and sworn enemies. Jesus’ first comment was directed toward that shameful and tragic condition. It was, then and there, announced by Jesus that the Gentiles would be received into the kingdom of God and that many ‘sons of the kingdom,’ that is, Jews, would not enter.” Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, Firm Foundation Publishing House, page 105, 1968, church of Christ.
Adam Clarke, Matthew 8:12: “’I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.’ - That is, I have not found so great an instance of confidence and faith in my power, even among the Jews, as this Roman, a Gentile, has shown himself to possess…’Many shall come from the east and west’ - Men of every description, of all countries…The rabbins represent the blessedness of the kingdom of God under the notion of a banquet…”With Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob’ - In the closest communion with the most eminent followers of God…’Shall be cast out into outer darkness’ - As the enjoyment of that salvation which Jesus Christ calls the kingdom of heaven is here represented under the notion of a nuptial festival, at which the guests sat down in a reclining posture, with the master of the feast; so the state of those who were excluded from the banquet is represented as deep darkness; because the nuptial solemnities took place at night. Hence, at those suppers, the house of reception was filled with lights…so they who were admitted to the banquet had the benefit of the light; but they who were shut out were in darkness.” Clarke, Albert Barnes, R. C. H. Lenski, Pulpit Commentary, and many others say Christ is speaking about the Jews being put out of the kingdom for rejection Christ and the Gentiles coming into the kingdom, the church, but because of their desperate need for proof of the doctrine of Hell they try to make that have a hidden double meaning, (1) Israel will no longer be God’s chosen people, (2) God is going to forever torment most of mankind in Hell. There is absolutely nothing about Hell, eternal torment, or anything after the judgment in this passage.
R. C. H. Lenski, Matthew 8:12: “As the physical descendants of Abraham the Jews were, indeed, the first heirs of the Messianic covenant and kingdom. The only trouble was that they failed to inherit. John 8:37-41 states why. Although they were beyond question ‘the sons of the kingdom’ because they were ‘Abraham’s seed’ and thus the potential heirs, they forfeited their inheritance of the kingdom by unbelief.”
John Wesley, Matthew 8:12: “Many from the farthest parts of the earth shall embrace the terms and enjoy the rewards of the Gospel covenant established with Abraham. But the Jews, who have the first title to them, shall be shut out from the feast. Luke xiii, 29.” Founder of Methodist Church.
Both “outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” are used only by Christ, all in reference to the Jews.
The three times "outer darkness" is used by Christ (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30) are in three parables, which refer to God's dealing with the Jews being cast out as God's chosen people and their destruction as a nation, but has been misused and changed to be the lost in Hell are in outer darkness.
The other times "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is used by Christ (Matthew 13:42; 13:50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30) are also about the Jews being cast out as God's chosen people have also been changed to be the lost in Hell that are weeping and gnashing their teeth; none of the passages mention Gehenna–Hell although they are often used to prove there is a place called “Hell.” In Matthew 13:39 and 13:50 the Greek is the end of the “age,” not the end of the world, the end of the age that then was, the Jewish age when they were cast out as God’s chosen people. To those who thought they were and would always be God’s chosen people, being told that they would be cast out was no small thing.
1. Matthew 13:41 and 13:50: In parables about the kingdom of Heaven Christ used “weeping and the gnashing of teeth” is when, “So shall it be in the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” Many believe “the kingdom of Heaven” to be the church and the “end of the age” to be the Jewish age.
2. Matthew 22 is also a parable of the marriage feast where those that were bidden did not come to the wedding and were destroyed, which seems to be speaking of the Jews rejecting Christ.
• Who and when was those in the highways invited to the wedding? The innovation is now open to all who will come to Christ, but after the kingdom is delivered up to God (1 Corinthians 15:24) no one will be invited, no one in the kingdom will be found to be not worthy (Matthew 22:8).
• Who was the wedding guest that did not have on a wedding-garment? In the kingdom, the church, there are many hypocrites, but they are not “arrayed in white garments” (Revelation 3:4-5). After the judgment, no one in the kingdom that has been delivered up to God will be found not to have on a wedding-garment and be cast out of Heaven; no one not in Heaven at that time will be invited, therefore; this parable of the kingdom is about something before the second coming of Christ.
3. Matthew 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem and ends with the parable of the evil servant that after he has been cut asunder “there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51).
4. In Matthew 25:30 the unprofitable servant also seems to be Israel.
Although many of the wisest preachers and writers whose writings have stood the test of time like J. W. McGarvey, B. W. Johnson, James Burton Coffman, H. Leo Boles, Adam Clarke, Lightfoot, R. C. H. Lenski, and many others say the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is speaking of the Jews being rejected as God's chosen people, some still misuse this as did Stephen Wiggins in the Firm Foundation, 2006, page 6. Gehenna is not in any of the passages with "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If he did any study it would be difficult to believe he did not know the weeping and gnashing of teeth has no reference to "Hell." Is this not just a desperate attempt to find a passage that teaches eternal torment?
Weeping and gnashing of teeth
Wages of sin is death
God says the "wages of sin is death," not an eternal life of weeping and gnashing of teeth in Hell that will go on forever for there would be no death if the lost weep and gnash their teeth for eternality because of being tormented by God. We would never be able to know that this weeping will be in Hell unless: First: Many say that there is a Hell, but there is not one word about it in the Bible. Second: Then they tell us that this weeping shall be in Hell. How could they know this when there is not one passage that says there will be weeping in "Hell"?
Some of the words used by Christ to describe the Jews: blind guides, hypocrites, murderers, adulterous, transgressors, faithless, perverse, fools, generation of snakes. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem...behold, your house (the temple Christ had just left) is left unto you desolate" (Matthew 23:38).
"That which Israel seeks for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened" (Romans 11:7). Whatever Israel did not obtain, the elect had obtained it, past tense at the time Paul wrote this. It was not something that would be obtained by Israel, or anyone at A. D. 70, or at the second coming of Christ. How are Jews, Gentiles, or anyone saved today, only by the Gospel? I was saved when I heard the Gospel and obeyed it; all that are saved are saved in the same way. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). Neither a Jew, nor a Greek can be saved without believing in Christ and obeying the gospel. Today a nation cannot be saved as a nation, not Israel, or any other nation. Individuals must believe and obey the Gospel; there is no other way. "But if some of the branches were broken off, ("some of the branches," plural, are individuals Jews, not "some of the nations" were broken off) and you, being a wild olive, was grafted in among them (among some of the branches, the Jews that believed and were not broken off, Paul was one of the Jews that believed; the individuals Gentiles that believed were grafted in)...Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith...for if God spared not the natural branches (individuals Jews), neither will he spare you (individuals Gentiles, not nations). Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell (“them” is plural, individuals, not nations), severity; but toward you, God's goodness; otherwise, you also shall be cut off. And they (individuals Jews, not plural nations) also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in" (Romans 11:17-24). Many of the believers in the early church were Jews. Paul was a Jew, and he said, "Even so than at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (at the time Paul was writing this some Jews believed) (Romans 11:4). Salvation is always available to anyone of any nation if they will accept Christ. The law was only a shadow of that which was to come. Israel cannot be restored as a nation without restoring the shadow, including restoring animal sacrifice, etc.
Dr T. W. Brents: “There is individuality about the Christian religion that cannot be dispensed with. Those who accept Christ must do it as individuals, not as a nation. Each one must come to Christ on his own individual faith. He can come in no other way. In this way he can come now; and this is the only way a Gentile, or anyone else can come. The Jews were broken off for unbelief, and they must come in faith. This opportunity they have now, and have always had–they need not expect, or wait for any thing more.” Gospel Sermons, page 329, 1918, Gospel Advocate Publishing Co.
"Woe unto you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. So you are witnesses and consent unto the works of your fathers: for they kill them, and you build their tombs. Therefore, also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute; that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation" (Luke 11:47-51).
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:50 PM
Location: San Antonio
2,820 posts, read 2,664,080 times
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Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Nothing but man's theories.

Jesus described hell -- and it's everlasting. God is just, so hell is a just recompense for those who go there. You reap what you sow.

Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Ok..... so to avoid hell i must cut my arm off? this is the problem when you take half of a verse literally and the other half figurative.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:29 PM
10 posts, read 9,433 times
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SOUL REQUIRED Luke 12:19-21
"And I will say to my life (Greek psukee), life (psukee), you have much goods lain up for many years: take your ease, eat, drink, be merry. But, God said unto him, You foolish one, this night is your LIFE (psukee) required of YOU; and the things which you have prepared, whose shall they be? So is he that lies up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." It is not eternal torment that will be required of them but life; life required of you, not life required of a soul. The New International Version reads, "And I'll say to myself (Greek psukee-life), 'you (Greek psukee-life) have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat drink and be merry.' But, God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life (Greek psukee) will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' This is how it will be with anyone whom stores up things for himself (puts the world ahead of God) but is not rich toward God." Those who believe souls are immortal use this to prove there will be life after death before the resurrection. They say this life must be from the time of death onward and never end, but it does not say either; life could not be required of a soul that has eternal life, of a soul that cannot not have life. There will be a resurrection and judgment of all, not just those in Christ. After the judgment, those who have laid up treasure for them self on earth, and are not rich toward God, their life will be required of them. Christ could not have said any plainer that life (not torment) would be required of those not rich toward God. It would make no sense if this psukee were an undying immortal soul. If a person had a soul that was deathless and will live forever how could life be required of that soul?
"YOUR soul (life-psukee) required of YOU." Who is the "your" and "you"? They could not be the soul for then it would be saying the "soul" is required of the "soul." "Your" is the person whose life will be required. A Soul, as the word is used today, was never required of anyone. Psukee in the New Testament is never an undying "immaterial, invisible part of man." Life will be required of the sinner, not an undying soul.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:22 AM
Location: Birmingham, AL
77 posts, read 54,134 times
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I see a lot of topics about "Hell" and what it is. Hell is NOT a fiery place underground where if you didn't make it then you would be sent down there by God, forever. That's not true. Where did you guys hear that from....your priest/pastor? You guys should really do some research. Hell is nothing but a grave that people goes to when they died. Jonah said that he was in hell:

* Jonah 2:1,2 - Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

So was there fire and demons in the belly of the fish (whale) with Jonah, torturing him? No, of course not! If God is a loving God (the one that sent his only son down to earth to died for our sins), do you seriously believe that he would send people to a place like that when they died to be torture forever, by Satan and the demons??? Come on guys, please open your eyes and realize who's right, and who's wrong, before it's too late!
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:27 PM
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
7,759 posts, read 6,617,312 times
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I don't know how one can read the entire New Testament and say Hell, is a problem. Whether its a problem for our little minds is not the issue. God's word teaches over and over again, that there is a hell, that unbelievers, idolaters, and all who rebel against Christ go there. It teaches that on those who have faith in Jesus will go there and it teaches that they will be punished there forever. It also teaches that most people will go there. REad the Book of REvelation just by itself and you can come to no other conclusion. Man does not judge God's wisdom or fairness. God judges man, as he will for every person on judgment day. IT may not make logical sense to you, but it is the truth. What we need as people is to repent, and cling to Christ and His righteousness which alone can save us.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:13 AM
Location: East Coast
28,534 posts, read 18,992,918 times
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Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
What we need as people is to repent, and cling to Christ and His righteousness which alone can save us.
Sounds good but unfortunately none of this statement is scriptural. Nothing in scripture about clinging to Christ and there is nothing about being saved alone by his righteousness( we are saved by his life).

Sorry I cannot take you serious about your view on hell, when you make such unscriptual statements like this.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:58 AM
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,468,364 times
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Sounds good but unfortunately none of this statement is scriptural. Nothing in scripture about clinging to Christ and there is nothing about being saved alone by his righteousness( we are saved by his life).

Sorry I cannot take you serious about your view on hell, when you make such unscriptual statements like this.
Pcamps, surely you believe we need to repent and that it is the Righteousness of Christ that saves us? That is definately Scriptural. Even if the mainstream view of Hell is actually fiction.
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