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You do understand that "being in the Father's hand" is allegory, don't you? So if I say I believe one can (willfully) "jump out of the Father's hand", that is also allegory...I'm not "adding to the Word", as you alluded, but rather summarizing what some of the Bible already says. Exactly how they "leave the Father's hand" is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if they walk, jump, run, swim, crawl, or fly...it's all immaterial. That scripture just means no outside force, person, or even Satan himself can take away one's salvation out of the Father's hand.
However...other Bible scripture makes it clear that one's salvation is secure only so long as we individually, personally, do not turn against God. While the "once-saved-always-saved regardless of whatever you do" doctrine may be very comforting, I don't believe the Bible supports that...UNLESS the believer abides in Him to the very end. IE: does not fall away from the faith. He who endures to the end shall be saved. If you stay serving God, then yes, you are secure. If you are out doing your own thing, rebelling, have unrepented/unconfessed sin, not serving God, have turned away...then you are in danger of forfeiting your salvation, unless you repent and come back to the Lord.
If you study the whole context of this subject in the Bible, it makes it clear that we can walk away from, rebel, depart from, fall from, reject, and turn away from, the faith. There is a point where a believer can fall away to the extent that they cannot be renewed again to repentance, because they crucify Christ over again. (If that isn't "jumping out of His hand", then you have my permission to change my wording to "turn away from", or "fall from"...whichever makes you happy). It all means the same: the person left the Lord willingly...nobody grabbed him out of the hand of the Father. They willingly decided they didn't want Jesus to be their Lord, and they willingly left.
You wanted to be shown from the Word? Ok. READ these:
Hebrews 3:12-14
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 2:1
1 Tim 4:1
John 6:66-68
2 Tim 2:12
2 Peter 2:20-21
John 15:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Chronicles 28:9
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 6:4-6
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 10:22
Luke 12:45-46
Rev 3:5
And...lastly...this one:
Romans 11:18-22
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Bud
All scripture is the truth. As Paul wrote there is no outside force that can sperate us from God's love Romans 8:37-39. However Paul wrote:
1 Timothy 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
Later Paul says he handed two men over to Satan....
You do understand that "being in the Father's hand" is allegory, don't you? So if I say I believe one can (willfully) "jump out of the Father's hand", that is also allegory...I'm not "adding to the Word", as you alluded, but rather summarizing what some of the Bible already says. Exactly how they "leave the Father's hand" is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if they walk, jump, run, swim, crawl, or fly...it's all immaterial. That scripture just means no outside force, person, or even Satan himself can take away one's salvation out of the Father's hand.
- - Nor any created being per Romans 8. Why do you continue to deny the power of God to do what He said He would do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk
However...other Bible scripture makes it clear that one's salvation is secure only so long as we individually, personally, do not turn against God. While the "once-saved-always-saved regardless of whatever you do" doctrine may be very comforting, I don't believe the Bible supports that...UNLESS the believer abides in Him to the very end. IE: does not fall away from the faith. He who endures to the end shall be saved. If you stay serving God, then yes, you are secure. If you are out doing your own thing, rebelling, have unrepented/unconfessed sin, not serving God, have turned away...then you are in danger of forfeiting your salvation, unless you repent and come back to the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:13 - If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. If we fall away from the faith, He still will not deny Himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk
If you study the whole context of this subject in the Bible, it makes it clear that we can walk away from, rebel, depart from, fall from, reject, and turn away from, the faith. There is a point where a believer can fall away to the extent that they cannot be renewed again to repentance, because they crucify Christ over again. (If that isn't "jumping out of His hand", then you have my permission to change my wording to "turn away from", or "fall from"...whichever makes you happy). It all means the same: the person left the Lord willingly...nobody grabbed him out of the hand of the Father. They willingly decided they didn't want Jesus to be their Lord, and they willingly left.
- - It is impossible to crucify Christ again. No one can be renewed again because it is unnecessary since no one can loose their salvation. Their deeds will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. They will be saved even though they will be burned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk
You wanted to be shown from the Word? Ok. READ these:
Hebrews 3:12-14
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 2:1
1 Tim 4:1
John 6:66-68
2 Tim 2:12
2 Peter 2:20-21
John 15:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Chronicles 28:9
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 6:4-6
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 10:22
Luke 12:45-46
Rev 3:5
And...lastly...this one:
Romans 11:18-22
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Bud
Hebrews 3:12-14 - I explained this already - I can't remember the post number.
1 Timothy 1:19 - see 1 Cor. 5:1-5 about how believers can be handed over to Satan and remain saved.
Hebrews 2:1 - What does this have to do with salvation?
1 Tim 4:1 - Nothing mentioned concerning the status of salvation.
John 6:66-68 - Jesus had not died yet. The Holy Spirit was not given permanently yet for salvation.
2 Tim 2:12 - Read 2:13 - if we are faithless, He is faithful. So even if we fall away from the faith, He remains faithful to His promise.
2 Peter 2:20-21 - Not speaking of salvation.
John 15:4-6 - Branches that are thrown away are burned - see the Hebrews verses and the judgment seat of Christ.
Hebrews 10:26-27 - Same as Heb. 6 - Christ can't be crucified again. Judgment will occur by fire through the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3). The fire will destroy only the adversaries - it will only burn the believer (Heb. 6:8) and salvation is still valid.
1 Chronicles 28:9 - This does not refer to salvation after Jesus' death.
1 Cor 9:27 - Disqualified from witnessing to others - others will not listen to him because he is known for bad conduct. This is not about salvation. Check the context.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - This just says Christ can't be crucified again. Read verse 8 - they are "close" to being cursed and are only burned.
Matthew 6:15 - Part of the sermon on the mount - not directed at believers - content does not deal w/ salvation.
Matthew 10:22 - Saved from what?
Luke 12:45-46 - Not sure on this one yet.
Rom. 11:18-22 - You need to look up to Rom. 11:11-13 to see who the branches are. This is not about individual salvation - but about Gentiles and Jews as groups.
Rev 3:5 - Who are the overcomers? 1 John 5:5 - Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
So the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God will not have his name erased from the book of life.
You do understand that "being in the Father's hand" is allegory, don't you? So if I say I believe one can (willfully) "jump out of the Father's hand", that is also allegory...I'm not "adding to the Word", as you alluded, but rather summarizing what some of the Bible already says. Exactly how they "leave the Father's hand" is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if they walk, jump, run, swim, crawl, or fly...it's all immaterial. That scripture just means no outside force, person, or even Satan himself can take away one's salvation out of the Father's hand.
However...other Bible scripture makes it clear that one's salvation is secure only so long as we individually, personally, do not turn against God. While the "once-saved-always-saved regardless of whatever you do" doctrine may be very comforting, I don't believe the Bible supports that...UNLESS the believer abides in Him to the very end. IE: does not fall away from the faith. He who endures to the end shall be saved. If you stay serving God, then yes, you are secure. If you are out doing your own thing, rebelling, have unrepented/unconfessed sin, not serving God, have turned away...then you are in danger of forfeiting your salvation, unless you repent and come back to the Lord.
If you study the whole context of this subject in the Bible, it makes it clear that we can walk away from, rebel, depart from, fall from, reject, and turn away from, the faith. There is a point where a believer can fall away to the extent that they cannot be renewed again to repentance, because they crucify Christ over again. (If that isn't "jumping out of His hand", then you have my permission to change my wording to "turn away from", or "fall from"...whichever makes you happy). It all means the same: the person left the Lord willingly...nobody grabbed him out of the hand of the Father. They willingly decided they didn't want Jesus to be their Lord, and they willingly left.
You wanted to be shown from the Word? Ok. READ these:
Hebrews 3:12-14
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 2:1
1 Tim 4:1
John 6:66-68
2 Tim 2:12
2 Peter 2:20-21
John 15:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Chronicles 28:9
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 6:4-6
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 10:22
Luke 12:45-46
Rev 3:5
And...lastly...this one:
Romans 11:18-22
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Bud
If you say that you keep being saved by serving God you are basing your salvation on your works and not God. What happens if you sin and you suddenly die are you not saved?
A “Christian†is not a person who has said a prayer, walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family.
While each of these things can be a "PART" of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes†a Christian.
A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only TRUE Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are:
(1) what about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle?
(2) what about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ?
The problem with these two objections is the assumption “are Christians.â€
The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6).
The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he/she never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19).
You do understand that "being in the Father's hand" is allegory, don't you? So if I say I believe one can (willfully) "jump out of the Father's hand", that is also allegory...I'm not "adding to the Word", as you alluded, but rather summarizing what some of the Bible already says. Exactly how they "leave the Father's hand" is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if they walk, jump, run, swim, crawl, or fly...it's all immaterial. That scripture just means no outside force, person, or even Satan himself can take away one's salvation out of the Father's hand.
However...other Bible scripture makes it clear that one's salvation is secure only so long as we individually, personally, do not turn against God. While the "once-saved-always-saved regardless of whatever you do" doctrine may be very comforting, I don't believe the Bible supports that...UNLESS the believer abides in Him to the very end. IE: does not fall away from the faith. He who endures to the end shall be saved. If you stay serving God, then yes, you are secure. If you are out doing your own thing, rebelling, have unrepented/unconfessed sin, not serving God, have turned away...then you are in danger of forfeiting your salvation, unless you repent and come back to the Lord.
If you study the whole context of this subject in the Bible, it makes it clear that we can walk away from, rebel, depart from, fall from, reject, and turn away from, the faith. There is a point where a believer can fall away to the extent that they cannot be renewed again to repentance, because they crucify Christ over again. (If that isn't "jumping out of His hand", then you have my permission to change my wording to "turn away from", or "fall from"...whichever makes you happy). It all means the same: the person left the Lord willingly...nobody grabbed him out of the hand of the Father. They willingly decided they didn't want Jesus to be their Lord, and they willingly left.
You wanted to be shown from the Word? Ok. READ these:
Hebrews 3:12-14
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 2:1
1 Tim 4:1
John 6:66-68
2 Tim 2:12
2 Peter 2:20-21
John 15:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Chronicles 28:9
1 Cor 9:27
Hebrews 6:4-6
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 10:22
Luke 12:45-46
Rev 3:5
And...lastly...this one:
Romans 11:18-22
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Bud
*
No I do not understand Jesus to be speaking in allegory, it is always good to refresh ourselves with His words so just for the blessing let's share it
Jn10:26-30
...you do not believe because you do not belong to My sheep, My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish and no-one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no-one is able to snatch them out of His hand.
These words are not allegorical, if they were they would still be the truth. It is just the reason that people allow these lies of satan to flourish in their own lives because they DO NOT grasp the concept of what it means to be in the Saviour's hand and in the Fathers hand.
There is hardly a scripture in the bible more designed to reassure even the weakest believer [and this rotten doctrine of yours strikes at the weakest members~the trembling lambs]
First Jesus explains there are two types of people those that ARE His sheep and those who are not. Those who are not are charactorized in that they do not hear the Saviours voice, they do not belong to Him.
The other type are those that DO hear His voice, they belong to Him.
They...
Hear His voice
follow Him
He gives them eternal life
they shall never perish
They are in the Saviour's hand and no-one is able to snatch them out
they are in the Father's hand who had given them to Jesus and no-one is able to snatch them out of His hand.
This is God's word, dare you gainsay God? contradict Him? throw in your rotten ha'penny commentary? that's is what the devil did in the garden so do you.
The devil said "hath God said?...you shall surely die" YOU SAY "hath God said you shall surely live" He [the devil]adds on his own word to God's so do you.
It is all about who we belong to, who we are, what we are, a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat. A wheat seed is a wheat seed and a tare is a tare.
I do not like reading great long posts so I'll answer the rest of your post seperately. You do not understand those scriptures, if you did you would see that you are on the wrong side of them.
If you say that you keep being saved by serving God you are basing your salvation on your works and not God. What happens if you sin and you suddenly die are you not saved?
Hebs 3:12
You can't see can you that it is YOU that is being spoken about here can you? in the preceding verse it tells you why they fell away, because of unbelief, they did not BELIEVE so do YOU not believe. God said they always went astray in their hearts, they erred in the way that they thought about God.
They were the ones who when it came time to inherit the promises of God, stood back and picked and fretted because of what their senses told them, Has God said eternal life? "ah but" they said, they have no right to say "ah but" neither do you. Has God said they shall never perish? "ah but" they said, they have no right to say "ah but" neither do you.
What you do not understand is that Hebrews simply isn't talking about salvation, being saved or lost. The OT crowd who fell in the wilderness did not lose their salvation, their salvation was in being chosen, their BLESSING was conditional, wheter or not they would enter the promised land here on earth was conditional.
It is exactly the same for us, we can fall away from Christ, walk contrary to Him, we will LOSE THE BLESSING and fall into many hurts, but we have left the land of Egypt, as they had, we are saved, as they were, we are the sheep of His pasture, as they were. They could not go back to Egypt nor can we.
I'm not going to go through all the other quotes, you should note the one in Heb 2 and be warned to pay attention to this great salvation. That is what you are NOT doing. You are worrying and fretting and doubting.
One day you are saved the next day you are not sure, this is a most unjoyful christian experience full of fearing and doubting.
Our salvation is finished settled forever, God has sworn Himself to save us and give us eternal life~now walk in it, work it out with fear and trembling dear brother lest you miss the blessing of it.
Hebs 3:12
You can't see can you that it is YOU that is being spoken about here can you? in the preceding verse it tells you why they fell away, because of unbelief, they did not BELIEVE so do YOU not believe. God said they always went astray in their hearts, they erred in the way that they thought about God.
They were the ones who when it came time to inherit the promises of God, stood back and picked and fretted because of what their senses told them, Has God said eternal life? "ah but" they said, they have no right to say "ah but" neither do you. Has God said they shall never perish? "ah but" they said, they have no right to say "ah but" neither do you.
What you do not understand is that Hebrews simply isn't talking about salvation, being saved or lost. The OT crowd who fell in the wilderness did not lose their salvation, their salvation was in being chosen, their BLESSING was conditional, wheter or not they would enter the promised land here on earth was conditional.
It is exactly the same for us, we can fall away from Christ, walk contrary to Him, we will LOSE THE BLESSING and fall into many hurts, but we have left the land of Egypt, as they had, we are saved, as they were, we are the sheep of His pasture, as they were. They could not go back to Egypt nor can we.
I'm not going to go through all the other quotes, you should note the one in Heb 2 and be warned to pay attention to this great salvation. That is what you are NOT doing. You are worrying and fretting and doubting.
One day you are saved the next day you are not sure, this is a most unjoyful christian experience full of fearing and doubting.
Our salvation is finished settled forever, God has sworn Himself to save us and give us eternal life~now walk in it, work it out with fear and trembling dear brother lest you miss the blessing of it.
*
Got the wrong brother there, oops But like me Mum used to say if she told me off for something I didn't do "it will do for next time "
QUOTE from post # 43 by Mike: It is the exact same thing as with Adam. Adam had been created by God in a state of human perfection. Adam had a perfect relationship with God before he disobeyed God, just as Lucifer had had a perfect relationship with God before he rebelled. When Adam disobeyed God, he lost his relationship with God and then was in need of salvation. Once Adam was saved, he could not lose his salvation. UNQUOTE
Ok, Adam was in a perfect relationship with God but he fell away from that and became in need of salvation. Forgetting the argument of what he is saved FROM, what is he saved TO? Satan wasn't ever human and Christian traditional orthodoxy has it that he was able to rebel against God. So is Adam restored to a perfect relationship with God AFTER salvation? In what form? Physical, or spiritual, or a combination of both? Even if it's spiritual perfection and not physical, if Satan could rebel by his own will, what is to prevent someone or more than one from rebelling in this future perfect relationship world? If Adam was made to not go against God but went against God, it was either that God had no control or He planned it that way. If something could occur to thwart God's original plan, what assurance do we have that we ourselves or someone else will never rebel again? If He just allowed it to happen then I suppose we could rest assured that He will never allow it to happen again, BUT, doesn't that take away our free will? Can we be happy if we have no free will? Gasp? Can God be content with having children that he won't allow ever to go against His will?
Just some thoughts.
" It is a very simple thing to understand." Is it? Really?
All who are deceived are confident they are not deceived. That is the essence of deception - the one deceived believes a lie. They are delusional.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
HK
This is the 3rd time I've seen this verse come up in the past week. Do people really believe 2 Thes 2:11-12 is talking about people being damned to an eternal hell because God sent them a strong delusion? In other words, God deludes people so they go to hell?
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You do not understand those scriptures, if you did you would see that you are on the wrong side of them. 
