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Old 12-01-2009, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,722,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes, there many mormons who are nice people. That isn't the issue. These are legitimate questions, asked in a polite way, in the interest of bringing the truth to light. That is all.
Ok, well... how do I say this politely?

You belong to a cult who worships a magical dead carpenter and constantly tries to recruit new members in order to further your cult's agenda. Since your cult has no evidence or real validation of it's truthfulness or authenticity, the only stratgegy it can pursue is to attack other cults on the off chance people will quit their cult and join yours.

Sounds positively god inspired to me!

 
Old 12-01-2009, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,367,009 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I made the point of the thread clear. I asked some questions preceded by the applicable Biblical verses, and then the quotations of the Mormon so called prophets who contradicted those verses. I then asked for Mormons to comment on those non Biblical beliefs held by their false prophets.

1. Why do you pass yourselves off as being Christians but deny the very unchanging nature of God?

2. Another question. Why do you add to the word of God by proclaming the Book of Mormon to be a companion to the Bible? It contradicts the Bible in so many ways. Just one example. Bible: Luke 23:44 says the darkness covered the Cross for 3 hours. Mormon (Helaman 14:20,27; 1 Nephi 19:10) says the darkness lasted 3 days.

3. There are numerous other contradictions.
Ok, so regardless of your opening sentences you are now revealing that this thread is not all about you trying to deceive board members into thinking that the fourth largest Christian church in the USA is a "cult" in the derogatory meaning of that word. Is that correct?


1. If God is unchanging, why did he appoint living prophets and apostles anciently and communicate with them, revealing his secrets to them and to his church, but change the ancient order in our time? Or is it at least possible that maybe He didn't change, that there are living prophets and apostles in our time and it's you who keeps your eyes shut and your ears closed lest you learn that which your pastor/mentor failed to teach you?

"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3: 7

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/amos/3/7#7


2. Some people tend to make the Bible an idol and worship it. The Bible is primarily the record of Judah in the Old World. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ is the record of Joseph in the New World (the Americas). In the Old World the darkness lasted three hours. In the New World (possibly because of volcanic ash etc. - there was massive destruction) the darkness lasted three days. So?

The Bible is a compilation of books/documents chosen by groups of scholars from among many others available that they could have chosen. There are many other books mentioned by bible writers that were not included by the scholars. If you are a sincere follower of Jesus Christ why do you not seek to learn as much as you possibly can about him?

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John 21: 25

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/21/25#25


"Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand." Ezekiel 37: 19

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/19#19


3. You seem to be able to find all kinds of "contradictions" between your own and your pastor's interpretation of bible verses and that of other Christians! But the Bible is in our canon also and I am not aware of any major contradictions between it and the Book of Mormon when the prophets are interpreted correctly. And there are of course a lot of contradictions within the books of the bible themselves.


------
What is the relationship between the Bible and the Book of Mormon?

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is a sacred record of Heavenly Father's dealings with an ancient people who lived in the western hemisphere and to whom the Bible makes reference.


What does the Bible say about the Book of Mormon?

Isaiah 29:4, 11-18; Ezekiel 37:15-17; John 10:16


What does the Book of Mormon say about the Bible?

2 Nephi 3:12; 3 Nephi 15:21; 23:1;


The Book of Mormon is a companion volume of scripture to the Bible. It both confirms and testifies of the truthfulness of the messages in the Bible. The Bible and the Book of Mormon complement each other, both providing a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world.


What does the Bible say about Jesus Christ?

Matthew 11:28-30; John 3:16-17; 14:6


What does the Book of Mormon say about Jesus Christ?

2 Nephi 2:6-8; 3 Nephi 11:8-11; Moroni 10:32



http://www.lds.org/topic/bible/



Living Apostles of Jesus Christ testify of Him:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/

Last edited by justamere10; 12-01-2009 at 09:30 AM..
 
Old 12-01-2009, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,828,131 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Bible: Luke 23:44 says the darkness covered the Cross for 3 hours.

Mormon (Helaman 14:20,27; 1 Nephi 19:10) says the darkness lasted 3 days.

There are numerous other contradictions.
Really? Do you think there are no contradictions from the KJV to the NIV or anyother translation.

How does this even come close to approaching a belief or salvation issue.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 12-01-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,919 posts, read 26,150,281 times
Reputation: 16082
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Ok, so regardless of your opening sentences you are now revealing that this thread is not all about you trying to deceive board members into thinking that the fourth largest Christian church in the USA is a "cult" in the derogatory meaning of that word. Is that correct?


1. If God is unchanging, why did he appoint living prophets and apostles anciently and communicate with them, revealing his secrets to them and to his church, but change the ancient order in our time? Or is it at least possible that maybe He didn't change, that there are living prophets and apostles in our time and it's you who keeps your eyes shut and your ears closed lest you learn that which your pastor/mentor failed to teach you?

"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3: 7

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/amos/3/7#7
In saying the word 'if' you make it clear with your very first word that you do not believe the bible. God is immutable. He does not change who and what He is.
James 1:17 ''...with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

God does not change His nature, who and what He is. His plan for man involves changes of administration in the different dispensations.

There are no Apostles or prophets today. The last Apostle was John. When he died, there were no more Apostles. The purpose of the gift of Apostle was to establish the early church. The Apostles therefore had authority over all the churches. The gift of prophecy did not last beyond the completion of the books of the Bible.

Size does not determine anything. The Mormon cult is not Christian.

Quote:
2. Some people tend to make the Bible an idol and worship it. The Bible is primarily the record of Judah in the Old World. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ is the record of Joseph in the New World (the Americas). In the Old World the darkness lasted three hours. In the New World (possibly because of volcanic ash etc. - there was massive destruction) the darkness lasted three days. So?

The Bible is a compilation of books/documents chosen by groups of scholars from among many others available that they could have chosen. There are many other books mentioned by bible writers that were not included by the scholars. If you are a sincere follower of Jesus Christ why do you not seek to learn as much as you possibly can about him?

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John 21: 25

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/21/25#25


"Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand." Ezekiel 37: 19

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/19#19
The Bible, both O.T. and N.T. is God's revelation to man of everything that God saw fit to make known to man. And the Bible was closed with the completion of Revelation, which carried with it a warning not to add or take anything away from it. Rev. 22:18.

The claim that the Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible contradicts Jude 3 that shows that the faith-the thing believed-was ''once for all delivered to the saints.'' This is a warning concerning apostasy.

The very fact that Mormons try to pass off the Book of Mormon as a companion stamps Momonisn as a cult.

You take that ridiculous theory that darkness covered the new world for three days as a result of some kind of massive destruction that occurred two thousand years ago and yet didn't affect the rest of the world, to any Geologist, non Mormon of course, and he will laugh you out of his office.

The darkness that covered the area around the Cross was supernatural, not natural. And it lasted for three hours. In a comment about the supernatural darkness that covered the land during the crucifixion (Mark 15:33) Africanus says that ''Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away third darkness as an eclipse of the sun.'' It wasn't an eclipse of course, but that what the critics tried to make it out to be. The darkness occurred during the last three hours that Christ was on the Cross. The earthquakes and the tearing of the veil occurred at the moment of Christs physical death. There were no major geological events that occurred (not talking about the earthquakes that did occur) that blacked out the sun for three days in the new world.

Quote:
3. You seem to be able to find all kinds of "contradictions" between your own and your pastor's interpretation of bible verses and that of other Christians! But the Bible is in our canon also and I am not aware of any major contradictions between it and the Book of Mormon when the prophets are interpreted correctly. And there are of course a lot of contradictions within the books of the bible themselves.


------
What is the relationship between the Bible and the Book of Mormon?

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is a sacred record of Heavenly Father's dealings with an ancient people who lived in the western hemisphere and to whom the Bible makes reference.


What does the Bible say about the Book of Mormon?

Isaiah 29:4, 11-18; Ezekiel 37:15-17; John 10:16


What does the Book of Mormon say about the Bible?

2 Nephi 3:12; 3 Nephi 15:21; 23:1;


The Book of Mormon is a companion volume of scripture to the Bible. It both confirms and testifies of the truthfulness of the messages in the Bible. The Bible and the Book of Mormon complement each other, both providing a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world.


What does the Bible say about Jesus Christ?

Matthew 11:28-30; John 3:16-17; 14:6


What does the Book of Mormon say about Jesus Christ?

2 Nephi 2:6-8; 3 Nephi 11:8-11; Moroni 10:32



http://www.lds.org/topic/bible/



Living Apostles of Jesus Christ testify of Him:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
'When the prophets are interpreted correctly.' The infamous catch phrase of the Mormons. Orsen Pratt, one of the original Mormon 'apostles' said, ''Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?'' And yet, fully one third of the Book of Mormon is quoted verbatum from the King James version of the Bible which was first produced in A.D. 1611. So you have the situation where the Mormons doubt the correctness of the Bible and yet a third of the Book of Mormon is copied from the King James Bible. The remaining two thirds of the Book of Mormon is Mormon fiction.

That brings up the point that Jesus said that ''Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matt. 24:35) But the words that Christ spoke don't seem to mean much to Orsen Pratt.

And speaking of the King James translation, the translators of the King James were divided into six teams; two teams worked at Oxford, two at Cambridge, and two at Westminster. The work of translation was divided between them. The teams were further broken down into an O.T. team and a N.T. team. They all worke independently of each other. This is why the Greek word PNEUMA was translated by one team as 'Spirit,' and by another team as 'Ghost,' and so you have in the King James both 'The Holy Spirit' and 'the Holy Ghost.' But the Mormons say that the Holy Spirit is a person, and that the Holy Ghost is a force. In other words, Mormons say that the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Ghost.

More contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or Mormon beliefs that may not necessarily be in the Book of Mormon.

1)Mormon refers to pjeople as Christians in 73 B.C. (Alma 46:13-16)

The Bible says ''And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26)

2)Mormon says that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. (Alma 7:10)

The Bible says that Jesus was born in Bethehem (Matt 2:1)

Well, rather then waste my time listing out all the contradictions, here are some links.
Argument against Mormonism

I am investigating the Mormon Church and am Confused (http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/I_Statements/confused.htm - broken link)

Blue Letter Bible - Study Tools

Well, you can't make Mormons realize that they're in a cult. It is something they have to realize for themselves. True Christians who know anything about Mormonism know that it is not Christian. The Mormons will protest till the cows come home. But seriously, why do think the Mormons were constantly being driven out of communities in the past. That should tell you something.

I think I'll leave it at this. Anyone wanting to know about Mormonism has access to all kinds of material on the internet. If you still want to get involved in it, that is your choice.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,367,009 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In saying the word 'if' you make it clear with your very first word that you do not believe the bible. God is immutable. He does not change who and what He is. James 1:17 ''...with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

God does not change His nature, who and what He is. His plan for man involves changes of administration in the different dispensations.

There are no Apostles or prophets today. The last Apostle was John. When he died, there were no more Apostles. The purpose of the gift of Apostle was to establish the early church. The Apostles therefore had authority over all the churches. The gift of prophecy did not last beyond the completion of the books of the Bible.

Size does not determine anything. The Mormon cult is not Christian.
Mike, regardless of your pretence that you can read my mind or whatever and think that I don't, I actually do believe the Bible to be true; it's in the canon of the church I affiliate with, I read and study it often.

But I do not idolize or worship any book! Books are just words. In the case of the books in the bible, words written by inspired yes, but fallible men. Words that have been translated over and over again by other fallible men. I am aware that there are mistakes in translation, many varying versions of the bible, contradictions even within the books of the bible, missing books, and an enormous number of ways to interpret and understand verses of scripture.

Yes, God is unchanging in such ways as His eternal love for all of His children, His knowledge of all things etc. But it is demonstrated over and over again in the scriptures that He relates to the changing circumstances on earth in changing ways. He commands the Israelites to destroy neighboring nations at certain times, not at others. The fulfillment of the lesser "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" commandments and the introduction of the "turn the other cheek" "love thy neighbor" laws etc. etc. are CHANGES!

Jesus Christ walking on earth and getting abused and beat up prior to his death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven is a (huge) CHANGE from the way he is today regardless of how you desperately want to take some verses of scripture out of the context of the whole (and sometimes out of common sense) and treat them literally, and with other verses treat them figuratively or ignore them to better validate in your own mind your own favorite package of beliefs.

Sorry to disappoint you but today's living apostles would not agree with your notion that John was the last living apostle or with the strict limitations you place on those special witnesses of Jesus Christ. The gift of prophecy is of course the witness of Jesus Christ. Apparently you think that witness is gone and God is no more a God of miracles etc.?

I think you'll need to make a much better case before you'll convince anyone that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult in the derogatory meaning that you have in mind.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 06:59 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,919 posts, read 26,150,281 times
Reputation: 16082
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Mike, regardless of your pretence that you can read my mind or whatever and think that I don't, I actually do believe the Bible to be true; it's in the canon of the church I affiliate with, I read and study it often.

But I do not idolize or worship any book! Books are just words. In the case of the books in the bible, words written by inspired yes, but fallible men. Words that have been translated over and over again by other fallible men. I am aware that there are mistakes in translation, many varying versions of the bible, contradictions even within the books of the bible, missing books, and an enormous number of ways to interpret and understand verses of scripture.

Yes, God is unchanging in such ways as His eternal love for all of His children, His knowledge of all things etc. But it is demonstrated over and over again in the scriptures that He relates to the changing circumstances on earth in changing ways. He commands the Israelites to destroy neighboring nations at certain times, not at others. The fulfillment of the lesser "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" commandments and the introduction of the "turn the other cheek" "love thy neighbor" laws etc. etc. are CHANGES!

Jesus Christ walking on earth and getting abused and beat up prior to his death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven is a (huge) CHANGE from the way he is today regardless of how you desperately want to take some verses of scripture out of the context of the whole (and sometimes out of common sense) and treat them literally, and with other verses treat them figuratively or ignore them to better validate in your own mind your own favorite package of beliefs.

Sorry to disappoint you but today's living apostles would not agree with your notion that John was the last living apostle or with the strict limitations you place on those special witnesses of Jesus Christ. The gift of prophecy is of course the witness of Jesus Christ. Apparently you think that witness is gone and God is no more a God of miracles etc.?

I think you'll need to make a much better case before you'll convince anyone that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult in the derogatory meaning that you have in mind.
I don't need to convince anyone. People who know much at all about the Mormons know that they do not follow the teachings of the Bible. As another Mormon on a different thread just now said, Mormons believe that God the Father has a physical body. But the Bible says in John 4:24 ''God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.''

So the Mormons disagree with the Bible about the nature of God.

You can make all the protests that you want about how Mormons are Christian and follow the teachings of the Bible, but the simple truth is that they aren't, and they don't.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 07:21 PM
 
4 posts, read 20,463 times
Reputation: 10
What is work righteousness? And what did you mean by the Mormons believe that Salvation takes this lifetime and the next?? Is that what you were saying or did I mis-understand?
 
Old 12-01-2009, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,828,131 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't need to convince anyone. [b]People who know much at all about the Mormons know that they do not follow the teachings of the Bible.
I've spent years studying the LDS faith, attended sacrament for a year in their church.
We have dozens of LDS friends, they are Bible believing, God loving, Jesus is their saviour People.

You speak of things you don't know, and should let go of fear and see for yourself.


godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 12-01-2009, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,367,009 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boochy View Post
What is work righteousness? And what did you mean by the Mormons believe that Salvation takes this lifetime and the next?? Is that what you were saying or did I mis-understand?
I'm not sure who you are addressing your question to and I don't understand it. If someone said that about Mormons please link to the post so I can get the context, thanks.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,898 posts, read 29,718,726 times
Reputation: 13059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boochy View Post
What is work righteousness?
Simply put, we believe in obeying the commandments of our Father in Heaven and of His Son, Jesus Christ. We believe that when we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior at baptism, we take upon ourselves His holy name, meaning that we take very seriously the commitment we have made to remain faithful to Him in all we say and do.

Quote:
And what did you mean by the Mormons believe that Salvation takes this lifetime and the next?? Is that what you were saying or did I mis-understand?
Unlike some Christians, we do not believe that a person is "saved" at a single point in time when he "invites Christ into his heart" or acknowledges that he is a sinner or professes any sort of belief. We believe that Jesus Christ established His Church here on the earth, and that the first principles and ordinances of His gospel are faith in Him, repentance for one's sins, baptism by immersion for the remission of those sins, and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. When we take these steps, we are starting on the path towards salvation and have the Savior's promise that, if we endure to the end in our faith and commitment to Him, we will be welcomed into His Father's kingdom.

So for us, salvation is a lifelong process. It begins with acknowledging our need for a Savior, making a commitment to Him, and remaining true to Him forever. We believe that while Christ's resurrection ensures the resurrection of each and every person who has ever lived -- regardless of what kind of life that person lived -- the "fulness of salvation" is a blessing that is given only to the most devoted of God's children. It includes the privilege of continuing to grow and progress eternally, with the ultimate goal being perfection. Jesus told us to "be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." We don't believe He would have commanded us to do the impossible. On the other hand, none of us can be perfect here and now. There isn't one of us who hasn't sinned at some point in his or her life. Ultimately, though, in the next life, we believe this is something we can strive for and actually achieve.

I hope this answers your question. Please feel free to tell me if I need to clarify something further.
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