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Old 12-06-2009, 02:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
The pre-tribulation rapture false teaching causes people to miss important points that Jesus taught about His return and our gathering to Him.

I watching for the false christ to appear first before Jesus comes to gather up His elect to Himself. [MATT 24:23-31]

Pre-tribbers are looking for Jesus first are setting themselfs up to be deceived by the first "christ" who calls himself Jesus.
Gideon said, precisely. While it is true Revelation is not written in Chronological order, the Gospels pretty much are. The gospels, as Mathew 24 only have different parables of the same event, this sheds more light on one single event with many circumstances surrounding that same event, but the gospels are most definitely written in chronological order as are Paul’s accounts when time factors are provided.

Pretribulationists are looking for the wrong Messiah. Some whom are not saved may find themselves suffering God's strong delusion for having pleasure in unrighteousness, or as translated, in errors. The error is found in their belief of a false timing concerning the Lord's return. They will be forced to believe a lie; the lie will be that Satan is God or the Messiah. The saved whom have been taught this doctrine will see the truth, eventually.


8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: This is the second coming, nothing secret about it.

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, Christ comes after all of Satan's evil works.
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. They are deceived by error, because some of them are not saved to begin with. Since some contiue not to receive the truth, they will not be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: SInce they believed in error and had pleasure in it, God sends them strong delusion so they believe the lie that Satan is God. 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. They will be damned for not believing the truth, but rather had pleasure in foolish error and fables.

Believing the correct doctrine concerning the timing of the Lord's return is very serious business. If you do not know, you are better off not speaking lies. Donot go by what Jack Van Impe says or someone else. What do the scriptures say?

 
Old 12-06-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
[color=black][font=Verdana]



Believing the correct doctrine concerning the timing of the Lord's return is very serious business. If you do not know, you are better off not speaking lies. Donot go by what Jack Van Impe says or someone else. What do the scriptures say?[/b]
Do not go by what Gideon says either I go by what Scripture teaches, there will be a rapture before the seven year tribulation
 
Old 12-06-2009, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Do not go by what Gideon says either I go by what Scripture teaches, there will be a rapture before the seven year tribulation

And the people says: AMEN!! (see the people).....
 
Old 12-06-2009, 04:31 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And also Ilene, there's;

Imminency

This particular section of the raptureready website puts the lie to the claim of the post Tribulational crowd that the pre-Tribulational rapture is the invention of Darby and Scofield. It is a matter of record that there were those in the early church who acknowledged the imminency of our Lord's return .

And just to make the point, the imminency of the rapture requires that the rapture be pre-Tribulational. Imminent means that it can happen at any moment. There is nothing that must occur before the rapture. Therefore since the events of the Tribulation are known, if the rapture took place after the Tribulation, then it wouldn't be imminent. If someone doesn't accept this as logical, then there is no point in even trying to reason with them.

Here is what was written in Pseudo-Ephraem (est. time of writing between 374-627 A.D) ''All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.''

There are others listed in the link that was provided.

This alone shows that the pre-Tribulational rapture was recognized far earlier than Darby and Scofield, who unfortunately are targets of character assassinaton by some in the post tribulational crowd who feel the need to resort to that in an attempt to bolster their point of view. Sad.

When it comes down to it, it is what the Bible itself says about the rapture that matters. And it says a lot.

For instance, and I know that you already listed this verse, but to bring out a point, Rev 3:10 says,'' Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to those who dwell upon the earth.''

This was addressed to the church at Philadelphia but is intended for the entire church. It doesn't simply say that the church is kept from testing, it says that the church is kept from the 'hour' of testing. The church is kept from the timeframe in which the testing takes place. The entire seven year period of the Tribulation.
Thank you for that Mike.....I missed that one!!
 
Old 12-06-2009, 04:32 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,757,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Do not go by what Gideon says either I go by what Scripture teaches, there will be a rapture before the seven year tribulation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
And the people says: AMEN!! (see the people).....
Amen and Amen!!
 
Old 12-06-2009, 05:02 PM
 
5,498 posts, read 4,408,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And also Ilene, there's;

Imminency

This particular section of the raptureready website puts the lie to the claim of the post Tribulational crowd that the pre-Tribulational rapture is the invention of Darby and Scofield. It is a matter of record that there were those in the early church who acknowledged the imminency of our Lord's return .

And just to make the point, the imminency of the rapture requires that the rapture be pre-Tribulational. Imminent means that it can happen at any moment. There is nothing that must occur before the rapture. Therefore since the events of the Tribulation are known, if the rapture took place after the Tribulation, then it wouldn't be imminent. If someone doesn't accept this as logical, then there is no point in even trying to reason with them.

Here is what was written in Pseudo-Ephraem (est. time of writing between 374-627 A.D) ''All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.''

There are others listed in the link that was provided.

This alone shows that the pre-Tribulational rapture was recognized far earlier than Darby and Scofield, who unfortunately are targets of character assassinaton by some in the post tribulational crowd who feel the need to resort to that in an attempt to bolster their point of view. Sad.

When it comes down to it, it is what the Bible itself says about the rapture that matters. And it says a lot.

For instance, and I know that you already listed this verse, but to bring out a point, Rev 3:10 says,'' Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to those who dwell upon the earth.''

This was addressed to the church at Philadelphia but is intended for the entire church. It doesn't simply say that the church is kept from testing, it says that the church is kept from the 'hour' of testing. The church is kept from the timeframe in which the testing takes place. The entire seven year period of the Tribulation.
Let make somthing CLEAR about Rev.3:10.

First: It does not say that God would keep them from the world or the Tribulation; it says that God would keep them from ‘the hour of temptation.’ This is in line with Jesus’ prayer in Jn.17:15. The focus is not so much the hour but the temptation. In other words God is keeping them from what the hour represents not an ‘hour’ per-se; it’s a promise to keep them from the temptation of a particular time not to keep them from a moment of time called an ‘hour’ just so they don’t have to experience anymore time.[1] It is the power of God’s Spirit and promise that they overcome the temptation not a physical removal from a temporal-space-time. Certainly God does not have to remove them to protect, guard, or watch over them in regard to this temptation. So we could say God would ‘…guard you from the hour; that is the trial which is coming upon…’ or simply ‘…the hour; the trial…’

Second: The word keep does not necessitate a removal even if the preposition ἐκ is used in conjunction with it. The word can and does have the idea of to ‘guard, to keep watch over, and even to continue in a given state.’ Even though saints may have to endure the tribulation/temptation of the enemy (not God’s wrath but mans) they will be protected concerning the temptation. The temptation that will come upon the whole world is probably the deception that will prevail through the lying signs and wonders used to deceive people (II Thess.2:1-12) – but certainly not the elect (Matt.24:24).

Third: The preposition ἐκ is very flexible as can be seen by an examination of any Greek grammar. It can even have the idea of ‘because of’ (Jn.6:66) ‘Because of this [what Jesus said] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.’ The word for ‘time’ is not in the text – ‘from this (ἐκ) time…’ Now I am not saying that this is what the translation should be in Revelation but I am showing the flexibility of this preposition. In general it has the force of 1) Source: out of, from 2) Separation: away from, from 3) Temporal: from, from [this point]… on 4) Cause: because of 5) Partitive (substituting for a Partitive gen.): of 6) Means: by, from.[2] Now note the verb that it is used with, it says nothing about removal but protection as is seen in its parallel about the Church of Philadelphia guarding and protecting the word of Christ’s perseverance. This preposition can also have the idea of ‘since’ as in a marker of time from a point in the past. There is no necessity for spatial or time removal. Jesus could be saying that He ‘…also will guard you, since or because of the hour of trial is/that is coming upon the whole world.’

Fourth: Does this mean that those to whom Jesus spoke to in the other churches who were not patiently enduring would experience the temptation/trial? Nowhere in the letters to the seven churches does it explicitly say that God would keep them from the tribulation. In fact there are hints that they will go through it and those that overcome will be rewarded with certain blessings. Note 2:9-10 - now this is not the ‘The Tribulation’ per-se but notice what God allows them to suffer even unto death (cf.v.13) – not by His hands but by the Devil’s; 25-27, notice that it says to hold fast till I cometill the end… and then they will be given power over the nations and rule and reign with Him; 3:3 – once again here is the thief motif, which we know speaks of the great Day of the Lord when He judges the nations and the armies gathered at Armageddon. Notice that those who keep His word will not be taken by surprise when the Lord comes upon them as a thief - that is plundered and judged.

[1] See ‘Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics’ Daniel B. Wallace, p.94-96. The grammatical construction fits what is called the Genitive in Simple Opposition, where ‘…both nouns are in the same case (Gen.) and the appositive (Trial) does not name a specific example that falls within the category named by the noun to which it is related (hour). Rather, it simply gives a different designation that either clarifies who [or what] is the one [or thing] named or shows a different relation to the rest of the clause than what the first noun by itself could display. Both words thus have the same referent, though they describe it in different terms.’

[2] Ibid. pp.371-372; Also note, pp.123; 359-360; Page 123, he talks about κ + gen. expressing the beginning of time (cf., e.g., Mark 9:21 - ‘from childhood’). The point is, once again the meaning is flexible. On pages 359-360, he says regarding spatial functions of prepositions – ‘What is the value of this discussion for exegesis? It is simply that too often prepositions are analyzed simplistically, etymologically, and without consideration for the verb to which they are connected. Prepositions are often treated in isolation, as though their ontological meaning were still completely intact. Note for example, the following illustration.’ He then discusses John 1:18 and then list other texts impacted by the discussion including Rev.3:10.
 
Old 12-06-2009, 05:16 PM
 
392 posts, read 469,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
The pre-tribulation rapture false teaching causes people to miss important points that Jesus taught about His return and our gathering to Him.

I watching for the false christ to appear first before Jesus comes to gather up His elect to Himself. [MATT 24:23-31]

Pre-tribbers are looking for Jesus first are setting themselfs up to be deceived by the first "christ" who calls himself Jesus.

I see, thank you
 
Old 12-06-2009, 06:18 PM
 
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Gideon said, I had better get to the hour of temptation to settle this entire argument.
 
Old 12-06-2009, 08:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Enow said, "The Book of Revelation cannot be read as in chronological order; neither can Matthew chapter 24."
Gideon said, this is somewhat true for Revelation, but absolutely not true for Mathew 24. Mathew 24 is in chronological order but consist of different or varying parables to describe the same event. Parable one is seen in the beginning of Mathew 24 until we get to verse 31 where the first parable ends. The second parable starts in verse 32 and ends in verse 35. Verse 36 starts a third parble of the same event we see in the first and second parables and ends in verse 42. Verse 43 starts yet a fourth parable of the same event yet ends in 47. Finally verse 48 starts the last parable of the evil servant and ends with the last verse in Chapter 24:51.

Here is a break down of that interpretation. Take not that the chapter is indeed in chronological order, but is spit up with five different parables to shed light of varying details and the same event, the second coming and only second coming of Christ and the end of this Satanic age or end of the world as we know it. Satan is the prince and power of the air now, but when Jesus returns at the end of the Great Tribulation he becomes King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That is why he is titled as such in Revelation 19 when he returns to make holy union with his bride, whom is still on earth.

Ok, let's see, I think we can go on to Mathew 24 now. Mathew 24 shows the return of Christ in quite some detail. The other Gospels demonstrate many of these details also, but each has its own benefit. They all picture the same event, the return of Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation, as do the epistles of Paul and others. Rememberl, God gives us different accounts of the same event to shed more light and detail on that paticular subject Matter. This law of first mention can be seen in the creation account. In Genesis one we see the creation in general; while in chapter 2 we see it in more detail. God certainly does not want us to believe that he created two Adams etc, but it is just the way He chooses to reveal himself to man. The same goes with the second coming, there are not two second comings, but rather different pictures with varrying angles of one single event.

I will read this over and over again to familiarize myself with it; this serves as a reminder to me, and each time I do this, I usually find new detail that is exposed. It is amazing how simple but intricate the scriptures can be.


Matthew 24 (King James Version)


Matthew 24




Jesus said unto his disciples that not one stone would be left unturned. Josephus recorded that the roman soldiers, after burning the temple in 70 AD, tore down the stones in order to get the gold that was stuck in-between the stones. The gold from the temple had melted from the fire and went between the crevices; so in order to get this gold, they tore the stones down one from another. This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Though, I believe it will be fulfilled again when Jesus is about to return. We read in Revelation 11 there will be a big earthquake a measuring of the temple etc; it is my belief the temple will be rebuilt and torn down again by the earthquake, natural disaster or war. In actuality the Roman soldiers already tore them down or threw them down in 70 A.D., so the terminology is correct as Jesus tells us they will be thrown down. This is Herod's Temple.

In verse three, the disciples begin to set the context of the chapter as they ask him, "When shall these things be, and what shall be the signs of "thy coming and the end of the world?" Notice how the two are placed together in parellel. This is our first sign that they knew, when time in the world as we know it ends, is also when Jesus returns. Now time ending as we know it also means that Satan's rule on the earth ends too. This is what is meant by the end of the world, time ends, Satan's rule ends, and Jesus' kingdom begins on earth. For such a reason, Jesus is referred to as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and we see he taken his great power and reigned now.

Jesus' immediate response in verse 4 and 5 is to take heed and let no man deceive you. The warning demonstrates they will come in his name, claim they have Jesus, but notice how they come in his name, and then they say I am Christ. I do not think this necessarily means they actually say I am Christ, though we see that also. Satan is more subtle than that. I believe these are primarily, pastors that usurp God's authority in the church and seek to be worshipped as Christ. How many pastors do we know about that usurped the authority in the home over parents and in the church over God. It is common place in today’s churches. Many pastors have the attitude of it is ok to sin against God, and he will forgive you. You must not sin against me the pastor though; that is the unpardonable sin They rule the churches with iron fist, lies, corruption, extortion, brutality, coercion and wicked sinful natures; many are antichrists. They also teach doctrinal error. Following proper doctrines and teachings in scripture are very important; there is no way to dilute or water these verses down. There would be very, very few churches left that are sound in scripture if we apply these. Needless to say, many of our churches are filled with deceivers, whom being deceived shall deceive many. The ironic thing is many of these do not realize they are deceived themselves; in severe error, many think God actually favors their destructive activities.

In order to specifically prove what has been said about verses 4 and 5, we must look at the verb "come" in the Greek. The word “come” iserchomai, and it means to go with adjuncts implying motion from a place or person to another. What this word tells us I believe is that these false preachers are really saying I have Christ; this is the real Christ. They may not necessarily say I am Christ literally, but I have Christ some will say I am Christ. Naturally, one can weigh that out with scripture as to whether or not a preacher presents Christ or a false gospel. Now remember the entire Gospel is God’s word in truth, and not in partial truth. Just because one professes Jesus does not mean they have the Christ. The question to ask is are they teaching the doctrines and teachings of Christ and the apostles, as seen in God’s word. This is the ultimate test of their character.

Verse 6 tells the church there will be wars and rumors of wars. Since Christ ascended, there have been wars and rumors of wars. In today's climate of things they have escalated to unprecedented levels and continue to do so. The end is not yet nor by and by.

He then takes it up another notch and tells us that nation would rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. We see that throughout the world; nations are rising up against each other, and kingdoms or ethnic groups are rising up against each other in individual nations. Lately in America, we have risen up against other nations, but we have ethnic groups rising against each other suppressed to a degree here in our homeland. When that happens, we know things have gotten worse, though it is starting with terrorism in the US. The children of Ishmael hate us and they will do what they can to destroy us.

Now we are beginning to see pestilential plagues strike the planet. We here of bioterrorism, flu plagues, etc. It is common place to hear of diseases that are affecting our world. As time transpires they will only grow worse in nature and frequency. Their presence will become a global affect.

Finally in verse 9 we see all these things mentioned above are the beginning of sorrows. We are now in the time frame of verse 7-10 I believe. It appears that the earth is about to undergo some serious changes soon, when comparing it to the scripture. We see verse 7 is starting to happen now and it is escalating in the US, even. Eight tells us these are the beginning of sorrow. To a degree we have seen 9 take place with the holocaust. The holocaust was something that pointed to Israel becoming a nation or the olive tree blooming its shoots up, and it also represented a beginning to persecution soon to come worldwide. Israel is known as the olive tree, so its birth marks the beginning of the final generation of folks on earth before the Messiah returns. This is clearly stated in verses 32-34. What Jesus was telling us here is when Israel becomes a nation; this marks the ending of the beginning of sorrows and his return is at the doors, with in the spans or timeframe of one generation or about 70 years? So it is logical to say, Jesus could return by 2017-19, possibly. The persecution of the saints and the tribulation will soon commence and there will be no pre-tribulation rapture. The command to rebuild Israel back to the Messiah was given in 1947 by the UN giving a command for Israel to become a sovereign nation again. They reformed in 1948. The calendars are off by a year to account for zero, so we must take that into account also; it is not sure if we should measure the generation by the command or reformation of this nation. However 70 years or a generation from the reformation of Israel could place us at about 2017-2019 when Christ may return. This means the tribulation will most likely kick off by 2010-2012, most likely. I Do not like date setting, but this seems to be the logic here

32Now learn a parable ofthe fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Israel blooming to a nation again.
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Israel becoming a nation ends the beginning of sorrows and things begin to escalate as depicted with Hitler’s holocaust.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. This could be a forty year period, which has already passed or a 70 year period, which has not passed. It could also be 120 year period, which I doubt. All three generations are seen in scripture. It most likely is the 70 year period, which is the average life expectancy in the world also.


9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


Matthew 24 (King James Version)


Matthew 24


1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

We shall be delivered up to councils and magistrates, judges in order for them to afflict us for our faith we have. This appears to commence right before the Great Tribulation kicks off. Most likely they will begin in America or in Islamic nations first. Once the GT begins, this persecution becomes worldwide and escalates to unprecedented levels. The reason for the killing of the saints will be a refusal to accept the Mark of the Beast. This will begin when the Abomination that makes desolate occurs. We know that Satan sits in the Temple showing himself that he is God, and demands worship as such. Refusal to accept the mark is a refusal to worship Satan. In this manner we will not be able to buy or sell, or since we do not participate in the Babylonian economic system, they will kill us. When we see the AOD take place we are instructed to run and hide for life.

The bible tells us, unless God had shortened those days to the 3.5 year period, there would be no flesh left to save; what this most likely means is when Christ returns for his saints, or us, he will still find some living, in which the antichrist has not slain. If those days had not been shortened, Satan would have killed us all. For the elect's sake, God will shorten the days or put a limit on them. This will fulfill prophecy in I Cor 15 as we see that the living will be change in a moment or a twinkling of the eyes. Inspite of all this overwhelming proof we have provided so far, many hardcore, pre-tribulationists can not see the light. They remain in darkness or in the night. Refusal to come to the light until the strong delusion comes will keep them stuck there unless they see the light. This is one doctrine that will distinguish the sheep from the goats when the going gets tough. All accounts point to post-tribulation return of Christ, resurrection of the dead saints, and translation of the living saints


9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened


When Jesus speaks of the fig tree, most agree that this is Israel blooming in 1948 to become a nation again. Most intimately associate this portion of the parable with the rebirth of Israel as a nation. When Christ admonishes us to take note of these signs, the last one being the fig tree up to this point; it most certainly appears he is telling us that when fig tree or Israel blooms to become a nation again, his coming is at the doors. This seems to coincide with the beginning of sorrows ends, when things are steeped to becoming more perillous. It is so near that a generation shall not pass till all these things he has mentioned are fulfilled. The final sign, if you recall is the heavens taking a drastic change in apperance and character; the stars begin to fall in the blackness of space as it appears from what is written. The rebirth of Israel would put us at about 2017-2019 when christ may return to reign. For he said, the gereration that sees the fig tree bud again would not pass till all these things be fulfilled.

There are three generations in scripture. One is a period of about 40 years; we saw this with the wandering of the children of Israel in the wilderness during the Exodus. The other is a period of about 70 years, the average length of span a human lives now as reocorded in scripture. Finally there is another mentioned when God tells Abraham he will deliver Israel from Egypt in 400 years; he proceeds to tell him, in 4 generations. If we take the day and age we live in, the most applicable one is 70 years; what Christ is telling us is that a generation of 70 years would not pass from the time of marking sign, Israel becoming a nation, before he returns to reign on earth.

Jesus tells us that heaven and earth shall eventually even pass away, but his words will not pass away. Heaven will come down to earth and it shall endure forever in a new state of being with Christ ruling and reigning on earth. Lucifer is the prince and power of the air currently, but that will be short lived. Christ will eventually reign on earth forever. The earth shall endure forever is what the book of Psalms tells us. God says he will build a new earth in Revelation; most theologians believe this will be a remodled earth as the old is insinurated on the surface, along with the wicked in order to make preparations for the New earth, He recreates from the old; that is the picture I see.

Christ tells us that no man knows the "hour or day of his return." Does this mean we are to expect an any moment second coming? Absolutely not! It just means what is says, literally, that we will not know the day or the hour of his return, only the father knows that. Jesus knows the timing for he and the father are one. This is where one of the misconceptions pre-tribulaitonists presents comes from; that is the any moment occurrence of a pre-tribulation rapture. Since the Bible tells us we will not know the day or hour, they ignore the fact that Christ tells us and warns us to watch and know what watch he will come it. Their foolish reasoning is since we do not know the day or the hour then it must be any moment. They fail to read the rest of this passage and other passages, they ignore all the facts, and finally they cherry pick verses, without taking into consideration its context within the surrounding verses, As we read, we will see the rapture is not an any moment rapture, nor is it pre-tribulation. We have already seen that is is not pretrbulation nor an any moment to the saint, but it is to the wicked ones. They are in darkness and can not see the signs of His return. We will also see that some caught in the pre-tribulation error will think Christ has delayed his coming. It appears these that think their Lord has delayed in coming could only be the pre-tribulationists that are lost. Many of these will show their true colors of being goats as God makes a separation when the abomination desolation occurs. The sheep will remain sheep but those in error will become drunk in the night, unable to see truth and shall begin to smite their fellow servants. At this point God sends his strong delusion and it becomes too late to repent from following error and fables. They will have a pretribulation Messiah alright, but it wont be Jesus.

As we proceed on to the parable of Noah or Noe, we see this is another cherry picking set of verse they use and take out of context completely. We notice people are drinking and making merry in spite of all the violence on the earth. They are drunk in the night and many shall remain there. We see high divorce rates, and those people just keep getting married. Noah enters into the ark of God's safety, while the others are taken away by the flood of the wrath of God. The pretribulationists have it backwards. The ones being taken by the flood are the wikced ones. The righteous are protected in the Ark of God's covenant he made with Noah to reign and dwell on earth. "39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming ofthe Son of man be." This is one of the biggest misconceptions they have, as they think the saints are taken away. That is not the case. We see the wicked are taken by God's flood of wrath. Notice, Jesus even underscores this one, and tells us so shall also the coming of the son of man be. He means, that I am going to remove the wicked, not the saints. Yet they claim they will be removed, perhaps this is true, lest they repent of their error. He warns us one shall be in the field; one shall be taken and the other left. The ones taken here are the wicked, not the righteous. The pretribulationist have it way back wards. As we read on, we will see this even moreso in the rest of the chapter. Jesus tells us again to "Watch!!!" Now, if we can be taken at anymoment without any preceding signs as pre-tribulationist eroneusly proclaim, then what are we to watch for. Basically, they are calling Jesus a liar and a fraud by making a statement that there are no preceding signs that lead to Christ's second coming. Jesus just gave them all to us. They include and are not limited to the wars, rumors of wars, false Christ appearing, false prophets, nations and kingdoms against one another, the Obomination of Desolation, martyrdom of the saints, the appearnce of the antichrist, Israel becoming a nation, the heavens making a drastice change and rearrangement in character, etc, etc. Yet they say these are not applicable to the church, only the portion of the chapter that describes the one being taken and the other left. They even take that way out of context. It is evident, that Satan has brought this damnable heresy of pre-tribulationism. Satan had agents to do this, primarily the Jesuits, Illuminist, Darby, and Scofield. All of which I am sure will see the wrath of God one day.

Notice if the goodman had watched, then he would not have suffered his house to be broken into by the thief. The one that is not watching is not the faithful servant, whom his Lord finds watching. He suffers the consiquences for remaining in darkness and error. These are the ones that have pleasure in the error, (unrighteousness), of pretribulationism, as seen in II Thes 2. Having pleasure in this error is not an advisalbe thing to cling to.

In verse 44 Jesus tells us to be ready, for we know not in what hour he cometh. Being ready is watching the signs, and nothing short of it. Now Jesus asks the question, who is that faithful sevant whom his Lord shall find him doing so? The faithful servant is the one watching the signs; he is the one that is in the light of and can see, the sober one. God will give that servant meet in due season. This verse tells it all: 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Doing what? Watching!!!. Now we have just taken the portion of this parable, the Noah portion and proved we are to watch first off. Secondly, we have just proved that the only ones going anywhere are the wicked ones; they are going to hell. Observe. God makes the blessed servant ruler over all his goods.

Notice the evil servant will come to the conclusion first that God has delayed his coming, and then he shall begin to smite his fellow servant or the good one. So the one that thought his Lord would come earlier, not only thinks his Lord has delayed His coming, initially; but he becomes so disallusional, that he begins to smite his fellow servant or the blessed one of God. This is a picture of someone thinking Jesus would come at an earlier time, being caught in God's strong delusion, he begins to smite the godly servants. The antichrist is a quintecential picture of that, as he becomes incarnated by the Devil
in the middle of tribulation and begins to kill God's servants. However there are small antichrist also that will assist Satan in all his evil workings. Notice,this is very important. The evil servant is the one caught off guard here, not the godly one. The godly one is found watching when his Lord comes and he is blessed. The wicked one is found not watching, and caught unawares by the return of the Lord and is cut assunder in the Lake of fire. The good servant is allowed
to reign with His master and is appointed a ruler over his goods in His kingdom. As we can very clearly see, the evil ones are taken away in the flood of God's wrath to the lake of fire. The good ones are left as Noah was to reign and dwell on earth. The meek shall inheret the earth, not the wicked when Christ returns. Jesus certainly does not fly us away.






32Now learn a parable ofthe fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming ofthe Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming ofthe Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman ofthe house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Gideon said Mathew 24 is about the consumation of the final age. It started in the time of apostles when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It is the last time, as John wrote, "This is the last time. Ye have heard that the antichrist will come; there are many currnently amoung us." Even John realized that "the antichrist" had not come in his life, yet. The culmination of events progresses, the birth pains become more intensified as the "Day of the Lord" nears. Many prophecies and the most exciting and dramatic ones have yet to be fulfilled. The final ones will be the AOD, which has yet to occur. Another will be a worldwide campaign of slaughter against the saints, and those whom refuse to worship the image of the beast and his Mark, Digital Angel. Then when the tribulation comes to an end, the sun, moon and heavens will show the greatest fireworks display ever seen by man kind: to the saints it will be glorious, but to the lost it will be a horror show. Finally, the son of Man will appear coming with great clouds of witnesses and in great celestrial clouds, so big that the entire earth will see this event. His epiphany will confound many and cause them to think another sun has appeared. Clearly Jesus is speaking to the entire world and church here, as he tells us nation would rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. In revelatoin we see John writes to the seven churches about the second coming of Christ and he warns all to be ready lest they have their candlesticks removed. Every eye shall see him including they, the soldiers that pierced him. This can only mean, that since the Epiphany, apokolypcia, and paroucia of Christ mark the consumation of the age, the first resurrection (in which is the only first resurrection of all the righteous saints from down through the ages from Adam to the last martyr) that the Roman soldiers whom pierced him must have gotten saved. How do I know that? Simple for the ones that have pierced him to see him coming can only mean they are participants of the first resurrection, which is of all the righteous down through all the ages. They rise from the dead with all the other saints. Blessed and holy is he whom hath part in the first resurrection, over such the second death hath no power. The first resurrection transpires when Christ returns at the end of the GT.


13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

Clearly Jesus is speaking to humanity as a whole and not just Israel and the apostles; Woe to them that give suck in the winter, cold. Jerusalem is not cold as in the north or extreme south with their winters. There shall be tribulation in the world as never seen. We see Jesus is warning everyone, not just the ones in Jerusalem; that is only a portion of the warning. We see also the tribes of the earth Mourn. Finally, the angels gather the elect after the last or seventh trumpet is sounded from the four corners of the earth or from the four winds, hemespheres. This is a world wide event and campaign.

nowhere does Christ say that Mathew 24, 13 etc are only meant for Israel. We see the same events in Revelation 6 and 7 with the opening of the seals. We all know irrefutably, undeniably, without a doubt that Revelation was written to the churches as they are warned in not having their candlesticks removed. In Revelation 6 and 7 we see a worldwide campaign of the slaughter of the church, and Israel, the saints. There is no more Israel, as they are now grafted back into the body, the family tree, by the church. Take note to the great multitudes from evey nation, tongue, and kindred whom are before the throne of the God that now rules on earth. Christ begins to rule after the seventh trumpet is sounded (Rev11) and after the sixth seal is broken (Rev 6). Now we see the saints whom came out the Great Tribulation from every tongue, tribe, nation, and kindred, the largest group of martyrs ever ruling with Christ on earth. Ones head has to be filled with rocks if they can not see this is not Israel alone, but rather the entire body of believers. For such we see in Revelation 6 after the sixth seal is broken, the sun and moon darkening and the stars falling, Jesus is coming to rule. Then we see the kings and mighty men saying to the rocks fall on us and hide us from Him whom sits on the throne. THey know that God, Jesus is back to rule and reign on earth. He is also back to Judge the kings whom killed his saints for not worshipping the beast. There is no singularity of Israel during the tribulation. As a matter of fact, it apears the church is dominating the scene during the Great Tribulation. Mathew 24, John 21, Rev 11, 19, 20, Dan 7, Dan 8, II Thes 2, I Thes 4, I Thes 5, and Mark 13 etc. contain the same events we see here in Revelation 6 and 7. Revelation 6 and 7 just point out other details we do not see in Mathew 24 as the kings saying to the rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" So the wrath of the Lamb comes at the end of the Great Tribulation as does the rapture or gathering of the saints to Christ. Clearly the wrath of God comes at the end of the Great Tribulation and not during. Do not confuse Satan's wrath which occurs during the Great Tribualtion with God's which comes after. Do not misquote or twist scriptures into saying that Jesus comes before the tribulation. It is impossible to do so; you seem to rely on Darbyism, a false doctrine created by apostate, greedy men, whom created this doctrine for financial gain alone. It is a fairytale that has stretched truth disproportionately out of context, by cherry picking verses and misconstuing their context, meanings, and even their terminologies.

While it is true Revelation is not in chronological order, the gospels and epistles are most definately written in time order. They describe various parables of one single event, the second coming and end of the world or age or time as we know it. Revelatoin is written based on the 777 or three sevens, the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials or bowls. They occur simultaneously but at different pases. The vials do not occur until the very end of the GT, somewhere around the sixth seal and seventh trumpet For instance, when the sixth seal is broken, the seventh trumpet sounds, and the sixth vial is poured out just before Christ returns; the kings gather around Israel to destroy her but do not realized God is setting them up for complete destruction. The other five occur rapidly before the sixth.

That is why we see various details of the same martyrs, the same second coming, the same destruction of Babylon, the same gathering of the armies of earth to attempt destroying Israel and Christ as he returns, the same darkening of the heavens, etc; these are all single individual events described from different angels to shed various lights to us so we know all the details. No man will have any excuse. These events are something God's people should expect to come to pass.

Enow has given us a perfect case to follow after and over the course 0f time we will use his post as an illustation to desect pretribulationism and demonstrate its errors. As you can see this will take some time. We have only covered his first statement that Revelation and Mathew are not in time order. As we have seen Revelation is somewhat not in time order but its order is based on the 777, or the seven seals, seven trumpet, and seven bowls or vials. Though he has made an error in saying the Gospels as Mathew 24 are not in time order. They certainly are and as time progresses we arrive at the end of the age, when Jesus sends his angels to gather his elect for rewards and to set those good servants as keepers of Christ reign and inheretenc on earth, to gather the wicked for removal from earth and to set God's judgement upon them, to establish his kingdom on earth. All this is seen in time order in Mathew 24, with various parables to show the details of the sequence of events. Pretribulationists would always claim that the one being taken in Mathew 24's parable of the flood are the raptured saints going to heaven; not so, if you look closely, the ones being taken as by the flood are the wicked being removed from the earth. The meek shall inheret the earth, but the wicked shall be removed. In like manner the ones being left behind are the saints, whom are left here to reign with Christ on earth. Read the parable, Noah enters the ark for safetly while the ones being removed are the wicked being removed from the earth. So shall the coming of the Son of MAN be. Notice the ones being taken are the wicked being remove from the earth; while the righteous are left to reign with Christ in the Millenium. There is most certainly an orderly chronology to the Gospels and Mathew 24. Revelation has a chonology but is split up by the 777's.


37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming ofthe Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming ofthe Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-06-2009 at 09:59 PM..
 
Old 12-06-2009, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,456,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
The pre-tribulation rapture false teaching causes people to miss important points that Jesus taught about His return and our gathering to Him.

I watching for the false christ to appear first before Jesus comes to gather up His elect to Himself. [MATT 24:23-31]

Pre-tribbers are looking for Jesus first are setting themselfs up to be deceived by the first "christ" who calls himself Jesus.


See....you are already missing the point! You don't have too worry about all "those" things if you first place your TRUST in Christ! Stop trying to figure Him out, just BELIEVE! Oh ye of little faith, do you not understand.....HE GOT THIS!! Truly, HE does. TRUST HIM!!
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