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Gideon said wrong!! This passages are not remotely related to any pre-tribulation rapture. You are takiing them completely out of context.
On the contrary, you are taking scripture way out of context. The marriage of the Lamb has not even occurred as you suggest. We see clearly that Chapter 19 is merely announcing it. We see that more clearly in chapter 20 with Christ’s arrival the first resurrection occurs. This is the marriage, when the church is brought into union, through immortalilty with Christ, at the first resurrection on the last day. We know the first resurrection taking place is the only first resurrection in scripture; hence, this is the only resurrection of the righteous. This resurrection occurs on the last day of the Great Tribulation. Yet you falsely claim that the first resurrection has taken place 7 years earlier before the tribulation even gets started. You further claim that the wedding has already taken place seven years earlier, when in fact chapter 19 is merely announcing its imminence. The wedding has not taken place; Jesus is about to have union with his church on earth and raise them from the dead in the proceeding chapter 20.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now we see clearly that there is no first resurrection any time before this, on the last day; lest you dare say there is, prove it in scripture. Do not take one small verse out of context, that even stands by itself to depict its meaning in Revelation 19, as it is obvious the wedding has not taken place but is merely being announced here. The wedding has come, not has occurred. Nor should you confuse the armies in heaven that return with Christ as the entire church; this group of beings are angels, the saints from throughout the ages from Adam to the last martyr, and most likely horses and chariots of fire with other unimaginalble hosts. They, the dead in the Lord or saints of the ages, are returning to receive their immortalized bodies and see them resurrect from the dead.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now you must falsely claim this in not the first resurrection, on the last day. You must falsely claim there in a first resurrection seven years before the GT ends or at the beginning of the seven years. Yet you cannot show us one verse in scripture that says that. Now, not only can I show these verses that prove the resurrection is on the last day I can show you many. Yet it is impossible for you to show one that supports this theory filled with fallacy and lies.
It is plain and simple in scripture, the church raises from the dead on the last day. They, the dead saints from the ages, and the martyrs from Revelation return with Christ on the last day to receive their rewards, and their immortalized bodies on that day.
Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jhn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Throughout scripture, there is nothing that supports, nothing I repeat, that supports any kind of a pre-tribulation resurrection, but rather all scripture says this will occur on the last day as seen in revelation 20. Revelation 10 and 11 not only shows the resurrection of the dead behind veal, but it demonstrates this time will also bring them their rewards, on the last day. We will see that in Revelation 10 and 11.
5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. We see all this come to pass in revelation 10 and 11.
Now here we see many things: the last trumpet, the seventh angel or last angel to sound the last trumpet, the last day, time becomes no longer when the angel sounds, and finally the mystery of God becomes complete. When the angel sounds we see the mystery beginning to unfold. What is the mystery? Paul tells us exactly what it is. It is not something we are not supposes to know, but rather something that will only be realized when it is experienced.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now here we see the last trumpet, or seventh trumpet of Revelation; pre-tribers cannot claim this is not the last trumpet as there is no other last trumpet in scripture. This is the only last trumpet God in his sovereignty has given us. Hence it is the last trumpet, Rev 11. When the trumpet sounds as seen in Revelation 11 the saints or dead rise to receive their rewards. The kingdoms of earth become our Lords or simply put, the Millennium begins. Here in I Cor 15 we see the dead and living being changed in the blinking of an eye or twinkling. Now let's see what Revelation 11 says.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Then angel in chapter 10 announced the last trumpet and said the mystery would be complete as proclaimed to the prophets. Here we see it coming to fruition. The last angel sounds on the last day and many things occur. Christ's millennial reign begins first off. Secondly, the kings and nations are angry because their time of judgment has come as they have a new king over them now. It is also the time of the dead saints, or the time of the first resurrection, that the servants of God should raise to receive their rewards. Now all this takes place on the last day of the GT, when time becomes no longer because they become immortal. Time has no bearing on them anymore. They no time no more and shall reign with Christ. Hence this marks the last day as prophesied in scripture when the saints become immortal, even as Martha prophesied. Most importantly, it marks the beginning of Christ reign on earth; we shall reign with him as kings and priest.
In order for the pre-tribulation fantasy to be real, scripture would have had to present two last trumpets, two first resurrections, two weddings, two returns of Christ, two beamas or rewards ceremonies, two seventh angels that sound, and finally somewhere it would have had to demonstrate that one of these comings is a secret, hidden, silent one, with no preceding signs to signify it. Nowhere, I repeat, anywhere do we see that in scripture.
This pre-tribulation ideology is a mere fantasy or fairytale designed by Darby most likely to instill fear in the hearts of people. The fear was brought about by the notion that Jesus could come any day, and people should be ready; they falsely claim he could have come any day after his ascention, without any preceedings signs. Yet, in their consious they admit there are signs. Don’t you always hear those saying things as, “man Jesus could come any day; look around? The fear history demonstrates brought much profits to Darby and Scofield as well as pastor's of local churches. Afterall, people were being told, they should give of time and money to the cause of Christ as he could come any day. People fell for this lie in local churches and over exhasted there resources, monetarily and physically. We still see that today.
There is absolutely nothing they can present that has any soundness to it when measured with scripture and prophecy. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture, wedding, or return of Christ. That is quite obvious with just the verses just presented. Yet they still claim there is. Why? The answer is found in scripture. Lord willing we will cover that also, but it has to do with the heart of the matter. Further we just briefly touched on a few verses; we have not begun to cover the terminology and translation of various words, when we do so it becomes even more obvious.
By the way, Mike555, I would like for you to demonstrate, as you stated how Paul expands the doctrine of Pretribulationism in I Thes 4. Show us where you see pretribulationism here. It is not there. It is one of those bunnies again they pull out of a hat. You place meaning in this chapter that does not exist at all. I tripple dare challenge you to show us a pre-trib rapture of Chapter 4 or anywhere for that matter. Could you kindly expound on that for us, just chapter 4 or I Thes. Show us how you have arrived at that conclusion you just made here below and above.
Now you stated the rapture occurs in these verses; please show us in detail how "you" arrive at that.
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In contrast, the church is instructed to wait and look for His return for her, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Tit. 2:13; Heb 9:28.
The rapture is shown in I Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13.
You further stated this; demonstrate in detail, as I have done with scripture how you arrive at your conclusion.All we need you to do is demonstrate these two last areas you claim to be a pre-tribulation rapture. Be prepared, as I am prepared to easily debunk that.
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the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1 Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-16) Could you demonstrate this for us, as there in no such thing enclosed in these verse. Your false assumption is based on a Darbyist tradition, rather than facts to support it. As I stated before, I will not waist my time with a link you are baing your beliefs on. Preferably I would like to here your own expostion on these matters; please no cutting and pasting.
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In contrast, the church is instructed to wait and look for His return for her, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Tit. 2:13; Heb 9:28.
Here you contradict yourself completely as else where, as you claim the coming could be at anymoment, and any moment from the asccention of Christ with no preceeding signs; you are a pre-tribulationist? Are'nt you?. Yet you admit we are to watch. Do you know what we are to watch for??? Do you know the significance of that word "Watch" and what it means in the Greek; though it really doe not matter as it is self explanitory with exposition where it is used. Hint we have already covered it briefly in these writings.
There is no context to take John 14:1-4 out of. It says what it say. It is the clear statement of Jesus Christ to His disciples that the church is to be raptured.
And I believe I have already shown, either in this thread or in the other one concerning the rapture, That John 14:1-4 cannot take place at the time of the second advent.
In Revelation 19:7, the bride has made herself ready. The entire bride has made herself ready. The entire church is in Heaven and has gone through the judgment or bema seat of Christ. And in Revelation 19:11-14, Christ is returning to the earth with the church following him.
The church is to always have the expectation that Christ could return at any moment, and therefore to live accordingly.
1 Thess. 1:10 ''...and to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.''
The first resurrection takes place in four stages.
1) The resurrection of Christ. This has already occurred.
2) The rapture or resurrection of the church. This will terminate the church age prior to the Tribulation. John 14:1-4, 1 Thess. 4:13-18.
3) The resurrection of Old Testaments saints and Tribulational martyrs who died during the Tribulation. (Revelation 20:4) This takes place at the end of the Tribulation.
4) The resurrection of Millennial saints at the end of the Millennium. (Revelation 20:5)
Revelation 20:5 is clearly specified as taking place a thousand years after Revelation 20:4. It is only after revelation 20:5 has occured that the first resurrection is said to be complete. Revelation 20:5 takes place at the end of the Millennium, whereas, Revelation 20:4 occurs before the Millennium. They are separated by a thousand years. And yet both are said to be a part of the first resurrection. Again, it is in Rev. 20:5 where it says, ''The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. In other words, all four stages of the first resurrection have now taken place. Rev. 20:4 is stage three. Rev. 20:5 is stage four.
Stage one was the resurrection of Christ. Stage two will be the rapture of the church at the end of the church age prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.
To not acknowledge that Revelation 20:4 and 20:5 are separated by a thousand years, and to not acknowledge that the first resurrection takes place in stages when is it clearly shown that it does, takes some serious denial.
1 Thess 4:13-18 compared with John 14:1-3 gives you the rapture and the timing of the rapture as being pre-Tribulational, because John 14:1-3 cannot take place at any other time. Once Christ returns at the second advent, He stays on the earth where He establishes the Millennial Kingdom. He does not return to Heaven. Yet in John 14:1-3, Christ has promised that He will return from Heaven and take the church back to Heaven, to the prepared dwelling places that are in Heaven. In His Fathers house.
For anyone who is interested, here is a link with more information, including the verses that show that the church is delivered from the Tribulation that is to come.
It is my hope that people will not be confused and deceived by those who are promoting a post Tribulational rapture. The Thessalonian church was encouraged by Paul to wait for the Lord's return (1 Thess 1:6-10). They expected that it could occur at any time. This precludes the possibility of a post Tribulational rapture, as the events of the Tribulation are known, and must take place before the second advent of Christ. The rapture on the other hand is imminent. It is God's intention that we always live our lives in the expectation of His return for His church, so that we are prepared.
The first mention of the pre-Tribulational rapture is from Christ Himself in John 14:1-4 ''Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2) In My Father's house (Heaven) are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go and prepare a place for you. 3) ''And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4) And you know the way where I am going.''
Jesus told His disciples that He was going back to Heaven where He would prepare a place for them. And by extension, the church. He then said that He would return and take them back to Heaven where the prepared dwelling places were located. This means that the rapture is pre-Tribulational. If the rapture were post-Tribulational, then no one would be going up into heaven to those prepared dwelling places (I'm not talking about believers who have died and gone to heaven), because at the second Advent, Christ returns to the earth and stays on the earth. In John 14:1-4, Christ makes it clear that He is going to return and take the church back to Heaven with Him to those prepared dwelling places.
Gideon said,
"please read this chapter carefully."
John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Gideon said,
This is a perfect example of how pre-tribulationists cherry pick verses in scripture, take them grossly out of context, and build a phony fantasy of the pre-tribulation rapture around them. When looking at the first few verses, one can be deceived into believing the fable of pre-tribulationism. Now, we must not stop there with the first four verses and leave it at that. We must be Bereans and investigate the truth of the matter. Remember, when interpreting scripture, context is king. They simply take this small set of verses 1-4 and take them completely out of context by ignoring the rest of the chapter where the context is explained. Notice Jesus says nothing about a pre-trib rapture, yet they claim it is there. In order to see what Jesus is referring to in verses 1-4 we must first discover the context of those verses in how they relate to the message Jesus is giving in the entire passage; we cannot just look at those four verses and conclude it is a pre-tribulation rapture. We must look at the entire message to see what Jesus is telling us. However notice the first four verses do not mention anything about rapture at all. So this has nothing to do with the rapture, but rather with the Holy Spirit coming down to comfort us and us being lead by the triune trinity.
Notice after the first four verses Thomas ask a question, "We know not wither thou goest." Basically, what he is saying is where are you going; what are you talking about? How can we know the way to go to you? Jesus begins to tell him I am the way, the truth, and the life. If you have come to me through salvation, you already have me. No one can come to God but by me. He tells them if you have seen me you have seen the father for we are one. If you have loved me you have loved the Father for we are one.
We see the context being established over and over again in verses 16-26. Here is the true meaning of Jesus leaving us and coming again to receive us unto himself. It by no means is a pre-tribulation rapture. The fact that they take these verses way out of context only proves one thing; they keep not the words of Jesus. Not keeping the words of Christ is dangerous. That is not a good position to be in. For if we keep His words he sends us another comforter; only the saints can keep his words and receive the comforter, The Spirit of Truth, The Holy Ghost. Jesus prays for the Father to send the comforter, because the Father gives anything he request for us. Verse 18 clearly sets the context, as Jesus promises us to not leave us comfortless, but will come to us again through the Holy Ghost. He further says yet a little while and the world see me no more; yet you shall see me because I live, and the comforter will testify to that. So we must keep His words and commands in order to receive the blessings and manifestations of Christ in us. Part of keeping his words is keeping his doctrine straight and narrow. If we say this context means a pre-tribulation rapture, we keep not his words and cannot know him or have him manifest himself in our lives. We call Jesus a liar by presenting a false context with pre-tribulationism.
Judas asks a very important question, how is it that thou shalt manifest thyself to us but not the world? Here in the answer is the context, Jesus tell him the answer to verses 1-4, "22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest you unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. For such we see the word mansion literally means a place to dwell in or abide in or with. It does not mean a big house. Our abode is in God the Father, Holy Spirit, and in the Son. Him coming to receive unto himself has nothing at all to do with a pre-tribulation rapture, but rather with the comforter coming down at Pentecost and into every individual's life when they are saved. He tells us the Holy Spirit will bring all to our remembrance. The context is seen in the trinity abiding with us and receiving us unto themselves, in spite of the fact that Jesus is not here bodily with us. Notice Jesus clarifies that when he say below, and we (the trinity) will come unto him and make our abode with him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Now to say Darby, Scofield, the Jesuits, and the illuminists did not pervert scripture as these in foolish. It is very obvious there is no pre-tribulation rapture in these verses. Rather we see the trinity making his abode with the church, in the bodily absence of Christ as he goes back to the father. Once again, we have proven there is no such thing as a pre=-tribulation rapture; rather this dogma only presents a fairytale or should we call it the Cinderella of Christianity.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-08-2009 at 10:52 AM..
John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Gideon said,
This is a perfect example of how pretribulationists, cherry pick verses in scripture, take them grossly out of context, and build a fony fantacy of the pretribulation rapture around them. When looking at the first few verses, one can be deceived into believing the fable of or pretribulationism. Now, we must not stop there and leave it at that. Remember, when interpreting scripture, context is king. They simply take this small set of verses 1-4 and take them completely out of context by ignoring the rest of the chapter where the context is explained. Notice Jesus says nothing about a pre-trib rapture, yet they claim it is there. In order to see what Jesus is refering to in verses 1-4 we must first discover the context of those verses in how they relate to the message Jesus is giving in the entire passage; we can not just look at those four verses and conclude it is a pretribulation rapture. We must look at the entire message to see what Jesus is telling us. However notice the first four verses do not mention anything about a rapture at all. So this has nothing to do with the rapture, but rather with the Holy Spirit coming down to comfort us and us going to heaven should we die.
Notice after the first four verses Thomas ask a question, "We know not wither thou goest." Basically, what he is saying is where are you going; what are you talking about? How can we know the way to go to you. Jesus begins to tell him I am the way, the truth, and the life. Noone can come to God but by me. He tells them if you have seen me you have seen the father for we are one. If you have loved me you have loved the Father for we are one.
We see the context being established over and over again in verses 16-26. Here is the true meaning of Jesus leaving us and coming again to receive us unto himself. It by no means is a pretribulation rapture. The fact that they take these verses way out of context, only proves one thing; they keep not the words of Jesus. That is not a good position to be in. For if we keep His words he sends us another comforter; only the saints can keep his words and receive the comforter, The Spirit of Truth. The Holy Ghost. Jesus pray for the Father to send the comforter, because the Father gives anything he request for us. Verse 18 clearly sets the context, as Jesus promises us to not leave us comfortless, but will come to us again through the Holy Ghost. He further says yet a little while and the world see me no more; yet you shall see me because I live, and the comforter will testify to that. So we must keep His words and commands in order to receive the blessings and manifestations of Christ in us. If we say this context means a pre-tribulaiton rapture, we keep not his words and can not know him or have him manifest himself in our lives. We call Jesus a liar by pre-senting a false context with pre-tribulationism.
Judas ask a very important question,
John 14:1-4 ''Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2) In My Father's house (Heaven-the throne room of God-Not on this earth) are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you. 3) ''And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself (the rapture); that where I am, there (Heaven) you may be also.
Jesus has just told His disciples that He is going to return and take the church back with Him to Heaven where He has prepared dwelling places.
What Christ said in John 14:1-4 is expounded by the Apostle Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His Kingdom as described in Revelation 19:11-16. They are two different things.
Someone promoting a post tribulational rapture, must try to discredit this passage, They must claim that it is taken out of context and that it doesn't really mean what it says. Yet, it is a clear, straight forward, simple declaration that Christ will return for His church and take her back to Heaven.
This is not a reference to believers dying and going to Heaven. The believer does go to Heaven when he dies, but that is not what this passage is talking about. Christ does not return for each individual believer who dies, in order to take him to heaven.
Mike555 said, John 14:1-4 ''Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2) In My Father's house (Heaven-the throne room of God-Not on this earth) are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you. 3) ''And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself (the rapture); that where I am, there (Heaven) you may be also.
Jesus has just told His disciples that He is going to return and take the church back with Him to Heaven where He has prepared dwelling places.
What Christ said in John 14:1-4 is expounded by the Apostle Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His Kingdom as described in Revelation 19:11-16. They are two different things.
Someone promoting a post tribulational rapture, must try to discredit this passage, They must claim that it is taken out of context and that it doesn't really mean what it says. Yet, it is a clear, straight forward, simple declaration that Christ will return for His church and take her back to Heaven.
This is not a reference to believers dying and going to Heaven. The believer does go to Heaven when he dies, but that is not what this passage is talking about. Christ does not return for each individual believer who dies, in order to take him to heaven.
Gideon said, Before we move on to Revelation 3:10 let's see something new. Does it not concern you that you are not able to see the context of verses 1-4 as they relate to the chapter. These verses clearly have absolutely nothing to do with a the false rature presentation you make; they have nothing to do with the rapture at all, but are abode is in Christ, the Father and The Holy Spirit, even in the bodiy absence of Christ. You really should read the chapter before you post anything else on the subject; you obviously keep stumbling and the ability to grasp its meanings. The word mansion has nothing to do with a house or a palace as you think. In the greek, when traslated it means this: a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode 2) to make an (one's) abode 3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers. Clearly this has nothing to do with going to heaven and receiving a big house by means of a false pre-tribulation rapture found nowhere in scripture. It means as the context is set in verses 16-26 that we have an abiding place through the comforter whom Jesus has sent when he left. The abiding place of mansion, mone in the Greek is in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus says he, I will come unto you again, but not to the world. 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. This is how Jesus comes again to us, not by some false pre-tribulational rapture you falsely place in verses 1-4. I tell you; it is not there. Mansion, means to abide or have an abode with. It is not a big house in heaven. We have our abode in heaven with the trinity of the Godhead; it is not in a house or in a pre-tribulation rapture that takes us secretly to a big mansion. We have amone' or dwelling place in the trinity.
Gideon said,
"Please read this chapter carefully." Pre-tribulationists say the rapture is contained in verses 1-4, but we can see clearly these verses are taken completely out of context and they do not constitute a pre-tribulation rapture. The pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine, in which the church is caught up in; it has been passed on by its heretic fathers, Darby and Scofield. It appears they used this doctrine to make money and gain popularity amongst early American churches. The doctrine was used as a fear tactic to motivate people in the churches to buy their Bibles and propaganda in which they were promoting. The fear was set in the ideology of if Jesus could come any day; you had better know the facts and be ready. Hence, you better by our books, bibles etc and work hard for the church. This will make you ready for his any moment return; they falsely claimed.
John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Gideon said,
This is a perfect example of how pre-tribulationists cherry pick verses in scripture, take them grossly out of context, and build a phony fantasy of the pre-tribulation rapture around them. When looking at the first few verses, one can be deceived into believing the fable of pre-tribulationism. Now, we must not stop there with the first four verses and leave it at that. We must be Bereans and investigate the truth of the matter. Remember, when interpreting scripture, context is king. They simply take this small set of verses 1-4 and take them completely out of context by ignoring the rest of the chapter where the context is explained. Notice Jesus says nothing about a pre-trib rapture, yet they claim it is there. In order to see what Jesus is referring to in verses 1-4 we must first discover the context of those verses in how they relate to the message Jesus is giving in the entire passage; we cannot just look at those four verses and conclude it is a pre-tribulation rapture. We must look at the entire message to see what Jesus is telling us. However notice the first four verses do not mention anything about rapture at all. So this has nothing to do with the rapture, but rather with the Holy Spirit coming down to comfort us and us being lead by the triune trinity.
Notice after the first four verses Thomas ask a question, "We know not wither thou goest." Basically, what he is saying is where are you going; what are you talking about? How can we know the way to go to you? Jesus begins to tell him I am the way, the truth, and the life. If you have come to me through salvation, you already have me. No one can come to God but by me. He tells them if you have seen me you have seen the father for we are one. If you have loved me you have loved the Father for we are one.
We see the context being established over and over again in verses 16-26. Here is the true meaning of Jesus leaving us and coming again to receive us unto himself. It by no means is a pre-tribulation rapture. The fact that they take these verses way out of context only proves one thing; they keep not the words of Jesus. Not keeping the words of Christ is dangerous. That is not a good position to be in. For if we keep His words he sends us another comforter; only the saints can keep his words and receive the comforter, The Spirit of Truth, The Holy Ghost. Jesus prays for the Father to send the comforter, because the Father gives anything he request for us. Verse 18 clearly sets the context, as Jesus promises us to not leave us comfortless, but will come to us again through the Holy Ghost. He further says yet a little while and the world see me no more; yet you shall see me because I live, and the comforter will testify to that. So we must keep His words and commands in order to receive the blessings and manifestations of Christ in us. Part of keeping his words is keeping his doctrine straight and narrow. If we say this context means a pre-tribulation rapture, we keep not his words and cannot know him or have him manifest himself in our lives. We call Jesus a liar by presenting a false context with pre-tribulationism.
Judas asks a very important question, how is it that thou shalt manifest thyself to us but not the world? Here in the answer is the context, Jesus tell him the answer to verses 1-4, "22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest you unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. For such we see the word mansion literally means a place to dwell in or abide in or with. It does not mean a big house. Our abode is in God the Father, Holy Spirit, and in the Son. Him coming to receive unto himself has nothing at all to do with a pre-tribulation rapture, but rather with the comforter coming down at Pentecost and into every individual's life when they are saved. He tells us the Holy Spirit will bring all to our remembrance. The context is seen in the trinity abiding with us and receiving us unto themselves, in spite of the fact that Jesus is not here bodily with us. Notice Jesus clarifies that when he say below, and we (the trinity) will come unto him and make our abode with him. Now, very clearly this has nothing to do with Jesus making a bodily physical manifestation of himself, secretly to rapture the church in a pretribulation rapture. Rather, it is the comforter coming with the trinity to make their abode in us, after Jesus is gone and ascended to heaven. That is why they ask him how is it that you will come to us, but not to world, or to paraphase it, how is it you will come to us but not be here bodily.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Now to say Darby, Scofield, the Jesuits, and the illuminists did not pervert scripture as these in foolish. It is very obvious there is no pre-tribulation rapture in these verses. Rather we see the trinity making his abode with the church, in the bodily absence of Christ as he goes back to the father. Once again, we have proven there is no such thing as a pre=-tribulation rapture; rather this dogma only presents a fairytale or should we call it the Cinderella of Christianity.
Mike 555 said
What Christ said in John 14:1-4 is expounded by the Apostle Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His Kingdom as described in Revelation 19:11-16. They are two different things.
Someone promoting a post tribulational rapture, must try to discredit this passage, They must claim that it is taken out of context and that it doesn't really mean what it says. Yet, it is a clear, straight forward, simple declaration that Christ will return for His church and take her back to Heaven.
This is not a reference to believers dying and going to Heaven. The believer does go to Heaven when he dies, but that is not what this passage is talking about. Christ does not return for each individual believer who dies, in order to take him to heaven.
Gideon said, I double, tripple dare you to expound on that for us, as you claim Paul has done in I Thes 4. Let's also see you expound on Revelation 19. THey have nothing to do with John 14. You are busted again...Whammo
So you know I am not lying about the meaning of the word mansion, here it is below. Click on it and see for yourself. Simply go to the word mansion and click on the reference # 3438 to find its true meaning. It is not a big house, nor does the chapter set the context for a pretribulation rapture in the first four verses or anywhere as you falsely have claimed. Nor does the context of the chapter set the stage for us going to heaven and receiving a big mansion, by Jesus coming for us secretly or physically at all. The context is set in that Jesus comes to us spiritually to lead us in all truth by the Holy Spirit. Read it; I challenge you. If you grasp that truth, you will be on your way to being converted to post-tribulationism, the truth about our Lord's return. . Wrong, Wrong WRONG!!!
What you must understand, is even if the word did mean a big house, which it does not; it still would not make this mean a pre-tribulation rapture. There is nothing that even hints to this relating to any rapture. It relates to us abiding in the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. So if we are alive on earth he comes to us but not the world, because we are saved; he comes to us by the witness of the Holy Spirity whom is our comforter. He brings us the Father and Son in our Christian lives. If we die, we know the scriptures also teach elsewhere we shall be with Them. Jesus is so clear on this, I do not understand how anyone could Flop this up.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Enow said
Exactly why there is a pre tribulation rapture which causes believers to watch... otherwise... everyone would wait till the Jewish Temple be built from that seven year peace accord.
Gideon said, wrong again. If there were a pretribulation rapture you would have no prequalifying signs to watch for as according to pre-tribulationis, His coming could have been anytime after his ascention. Let's not try stattling both horses here, Enow. The watching is not as you interpret, to stay up all night and watch. It is to be aware of the signs of the times and our placement in them. To be sober of the conditions around us and to not be drunk in the excess of the world. That is the meaning of watching.
Jesus didn't tell US to watch for anything....He was talking to his APOSTLES....people of the first century....they were the ones to be looking and watching for all the signs of the coming judgment.
When the relevant audience (the people Jesus was speaking to at that time) and context of the words is ignored or taken out of scripture....one can make it say whatever one wants to.
Gideon said,
Wrong again. They had the word in the flesh. Hence we needed the written word. The wrath of God does not come until the very end of the GT, on the last day when the saints are raised incorruptable to withstand the wrath he pours on the wicked, even the pretribulationists agree with this. So what you are telling us is that the signs of His jugdement occured 2000 years ago!!! When did His judgement occur? Where are the immortalized saints and the millenial kingdom? According to your reasoning, they should all be here. As far as I know, Satan is still the prince and power of the air.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-08-2009 at 12:38 PM..
Enow said, So there is judgment coming on the House of God first ( 1 Peter 4:17 ) because ofthe falling away ofthe faith. Jesus spoke of false prophets coming into the churches in Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 which shows the thrusting out of those astray as excommunication was taught by Jesus and so will He do to His House for those not ready as the foolish virgins and the prodigal sons.
His coming back has Him dealing with the devil first at the Valley of Armegeddon after "landing on the Mount of Olives".
So the call to be ready is now. As much as everyone that opposes the pre tribulation rapture: like those that preach universal reconciliation, it is giving believers an excuse not to watch or to preach or to exhort every believer to be ready for the Bridegroom. Oppositions to the pre tribulation rapture would cause many believers to lax and like universal reconciliation, would give pause to non believers in coming to Jesus because they do not want to be "concern" now with God when they have too much cares of this life to think about Him.... and yet Jesus warned us to pray that we not be weighed down with the cares of this life should that day catch us unaware.
Again, not all believers will be ready as Jesus prophesied that many will not, but only a few because of false prophets. With the Toronto Blessings, the Pensacola Outpouring, the "holy laughter" movement which was interdenomenational in 1994, and other such phenomenons where the banner waved is on the name ofthe "Holy Spirit" as such practise is after the rudiment ofthe world in how they seek after spirits and worship spirit, but God would call them to a personal relationship with Him through the Son and the wayward believers to narrow the way back to the straight gate: Jesus Christ... their first love so that they may be ready as the chaste bride.
The falling away ofthe faith has occurred now and many that chase after the Holy Spirit when He is in us as promised for coming to and believing in Jesus Christ, do not see themselves as an adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign nor do they see themselves as preaching another spirit to receive, nor see themselves as forgetting their first love when they refer to Him but yet cannot see themselves as broadening the Way in "how" we are to have that personal relationship with God to stand apart from the rudiments in the world as a witness ofthe Son.
The watching to prevent a thief from breaking through is to not suffer a thief from breaking through by not seeking another spirit to receive.
Those that have gone astray in these penomenons, need to heed His saying by narrowing the way back to their first love in having that personal relationship with Ghod through Jesus Christ. That is why He is called the Bridegroom for us to be chaste in our relationship with God. That is Whom the indwelling Holy Spirit in us is still pointing us to go to as well as the scriptures.
May God cause the increase.. for I know I am nothing in sharing this.
Gideon said, you sound all mixed up and confused; like someone from Fairhaven. Surely the proof has already been given to entirely debunk a pre-tribulation rapture. As far as the churches go, most Independent Fundammental Baptist churches have false prophets standing behind their pulpits, as they claim Jesus is going to fly them away before the GT or any tribulation arrives. That is so funny. Just because they have non scripturally excommunicated people does not make them right. They could be the false prophets excommunicating the true prophets of God. If you study the parable or the virgins, hmmm, next after Revelation 3:10 you will see it is supportive and proves a post-tribulation rapture.
What will happen to those left behind?
They're "out of luck". I really think the "great deception" mentioned in the scripture may be this whole pretrib rapture garbage. I once was a believer in it too, until I studied up on it and saw what the Bible says instead of what Lindsay, LaHaye, Scoffield, Darby, etc.. say or said.
No where in the Bible is it taught. We've been *told* this is taught but WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY? If the Bible doesn't say, then don't read into it what some *man* says, or in the rapture theory, what some *woman* said. Do you realize this whole rapture business was really first taught by a woman, one Mgt. MacDonald?
I wondered why our anabaptist (I am one) forefathers never believed it. When I studied up on it, I found out that it was because they hadn't been tainted with this popular American theology. (I know MacDonald wasn't an American so don't clobber me for that.)
I once rang the rapture bells myself but now I have seen what the Bible really says. Please show me from scripture where this rapture occurs? I Thess is where you will direct us to. Note exactly what it says. Trumpet, angels, shout and clouds. Now look at all of Matt. chpt. 24. The question was when would the end come. When would Jesus return. Note what it says: Immediately after the "tribulation of those days" what will happen? Note, clouds, angels, trump, and clouds. So is this a second rapture? Or is it talking about the same thing we read about i Thess.
The rapture theory is helping to populate hell, not scare people out of it. I've run into people who've said, "Well, if this is true, then when these Christians disappear, I'll know the Bible is true and have time to repent."
Please read the Bible for what it says. "Secret rapture" The Bible says when Christ comes every eye will see Him and they'll look upon Him whom they have pierced." If the Bible says every, it means every. Not just the saved, but the lost. When Jesus comes, it will be too late. You won't have another 7 years to make up your mind.
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