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Old 12-09-2009, 02:33 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,771,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plowman View Post
I wait with bated breath. For both the video, and the Lord's return. Howsomever, I believe the time of "the great falling away" has more falling to do.

However, I believe thoroughly I should do my work as if I'd be here for a thousand years, but live my life as if the Lord may come at any moment. For me, he could, be it at the last trump or when I draw my last breath, whichever comes first.

He said, "Occupy until I come". How are you occupying? Are you winning souls to the Lord, or sitting around waiting for a "rapture"?

Actually, some folks get so "heavenly minded". That's the words my pretrib friends use to describe their belief, not mine. But they're so "heavenly minded" that they're no earthly good. The sit around spouting rapture and singing "I Wish We'd All Been Ready". Well then, do something about those who aren't.

Every day the Lord delays His coming tells me that He is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish. We all have loved ones who need to get right with God. What are we doing to witness to them.

I know one fellow who gave all his kids the "Left Behind" series to witness to them. Folks need the Word of God, not some piece of fiction.
How are you occupying? I see you on here as much or more than I am so who's sitting around? Not me!! And I think your friend giving the Left Behind series to his kids is a very smart man....it's still a witnessing tool whether you believe in the Rapture or not.

I see a whole lot of you accusing pre-trib Rapture believers of doing "nothing" other than waiting....that is not true and how dare you even assume that it is true. Your Rapture believing "friend" is probably doing more than you.

 
Old 12-09-2009, 03:11 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,453 times
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Quote:
Enow said,

There is a prequalifying sign to watch for.

The broadening of the way in approaching God other than Jesus Christ which is the definition of "anti-christ" as in "instead of Christ". The falling away of the faith will be the result of this as false prophets and seducing spirits are causing this to occur whereas many believers go in thereat as an adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign, ceasing to be the chaste bride.

The falling away of the faith is to occur first: 1 Timothy 4:1-2

This is why the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses, after the rapture.
The idea of watching is to prevent the thief from breaking through as Jesus warned of false prophets in broadening the way by new age rudimets of the world in how they seek another spirit to receive, and the solution is to narrow the way back to the straight gate: Jesus Christ.

This is the offense and work of iniquity that Jesus will judge the church by as He taught, and so will He do... excommunicate the wayward at the rapture event. This is how and when the seperation of the vessels unto honour, the chaste bride from the vessels unto dishonour, the foolish virgins and the prodigal sons will occur.

Remember what Paul said about excommunication when a man was having his father's wife as the church was ignoring this sin?

1 Corinthians 5: 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

How is that not representative of what Christ is going to do for those not abiding in Him as God warned the churches in Revelation to avoid going through the great tribulation? Will not Satan war against the saints?

Gideon said, Enow continues to completely take God's word out of context. I have not been able to answer all his miscalculations he has presented with his errors, or false interpretations of scripture. There are just too many to address all at once. Some will be answered in this post as he continues to present the same foolish errors; so please continue, Enow. The falling away apostasy or error Paul speaks about in II Thes is concerning the timing of the Lord's return. We all know most Christians, false prophets in our churches know about the Gospel. Paul is contending the error concerning the timing of Christ's return in II Thes 2 when he speaks of the apostasy, which not obvious to the average saint; for the apostasy falls in the timeframe of His return. For such a reason he gives grave consequence for those whom remain in the error concerning the timing until the strong delusion of God comes. The consequence is eternal damnation. Now, that is something to be very concerned with, especially if one is not saved. While Enow claims we are a wicked and adulterous generation seeking a sign, (which by the way he also takes Mathew 12:39 completely out of context as Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and not to us with regard to His second coming) he says he has two signs to look out for: the apostasy and appearance of the antichrist. Now that seems hypocritical, don’t you think? Yet, there is a third sign he ignores; he ignores that we shall see all the evil workings of Satan as Paul tells us in II Thessalonians 2:9 ([Even him] (Christ), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders); I do not know if you understand this but it literally says, Jesus will not come until Satan's evil work is complete and done. The conclusion of the matter is there is no pretrib rapture. He ignores the fact that all the Gospels, including Daniel and II Thes 2 tell us we shall see the abomination desolation when it occurs and the evil works Satan brings after that. He further proceeds to indirectly tell us we are not a chaste bride and Jesus will leave us behind for not believing the false doctrine of pre-tribulationism or Darbyism. Hey all God's saints are chaste; we are purchased with the precious blood of Jesus. That is the first time I have heard that from any pretribber. He calls us a wicked and adulterous generation for not believing in the pre-tribulation rapture and for seeking the signs Jesus has commanded us to watch for. The reality of the matter is they have it backwards. There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

Funny, while Enow claims there are two signs to pointing to the return of Christ they look out for; he accuses post-tribulationism of being an evil and adulterous generation seeking for the ones Jesus commanded us to look for. Not only does he take the verses Jesus spoke against the Pharisees out of context completely, they have nothing to do with the rapture, but he intern falsely and indirectly accuses us of being an evil and adulterous generation seeking for signs of His coming, unchaste and unprepared for the rapture. Now let's not forget Jesus told us what signs would precede his coming and He further has commanded us to watch, over and over again. What he is saying is that since we are watching for the signs Jesus has given us, we are not a chaste bride. The end result will be according to him a pre-tribulation rapture to Christ, which we will not be worthy of. God will send his chastisement on us and put us through the Great tribulation.

6And this is love that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Now we see here in II John and II Peter the true definition of an antichrist and the false prophets. What are they? They first of all present the Gospel in its truth (the death burial and resurrection of Christ) for we see they deny the Christ that bought them or purchased him with His blood. So they do not deny the Christ bought them with words but with damnable heresies. Satan is more clever than that; he will not come in as a evil one, but will come in sheep's clothing, unawares or as by stealth as it translates, professing Jesus whom purchased them but denying the Lord in doctrine and truth. What this means is they do say Jesus bought them with His blood but they deny Him with their damnable heresies and false doctrine, as pre-tribulationism or church discipline even. Most churches do not practice church discipline as instructed in Mathew 18; all these denials in proper doctrine and instruction, given directly from God's word, are damnable heresies. The pre-tribulation rapture is a damnable heresy. So those missionaries and pastors promoting the doctrines of Jezebel or Ishtar, Babylonianism and Americanism are in danger of great hell fire that shall eventually fall on Babylon, the mother of Harlots. The Great Tribulation will begin in America, the church in America is very lax, materialistic, and glorifies herself saying she will never have loss or children and see no pain. For such, Hell fire will fall on America in one hour and she will be completely destroyed. Most preachers do not like to hear this reality because it goes against the nature of their being, culture, and upbringing. So the falling away is seen primarily in the evangelical system of America and its church leadership whom promotes false doctrines, saying, "Thus sayeth the Lord, when the Lord has not said.

This false doctrine has brought destruction to our nation in every way imaginable. America’s main problem lies in the false teachings of the false prophets. Many have itching ears and like to have them tickled rather than to hear brutal truth.

Nowhere do we see the task of taking the Gospel to the world will go back to the Jew and the church is out of here. Show us where you come up with that reasoning. It appears the 144,000 witness are marked by the seal of God after the rapture to protect them from the wrath God is pouring on the nations. We see in the Old Testament God opens the earth to protect them from the armies of the nations.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

The falling away from faith is seen in most all our churches as they preach a false gospel; the gospel is not merely the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but rather it consist of all the teachings and doctrines of the apostles and Christ. BTW way the return of Christ is a doctrine. Hence the biggest doctrinal conflict today lies in the return of Christ; after all, it is at hand. The fact that pre-tribulationism is a false doctrine, it is the very obvious apostasy the church has fallen into in these last days. We know it came into existence in the early 1830's or so and spread by means of Darby and Scofield in the mid 1800's. This is the heart of apostasy in the church today. Rather than say the unchaste part of the church will be left behind; it is accurate to say, those whom trust in a pre-tribulation rapture will suffer God's strong delusion when God sends it. Those whom remain unsaved, and continue in this error until the delusion occurs will suffer God damnation or eternal Judgment. Those saved ones whom remain non-repented until the delusion arrive are most likely the ones that will suffer Great Tribulation in the Church of Thyatira.

6And this is love that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:


1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

The falling away from faith is seen in most all our churches as they preach a false gospel; the gospel is not merely the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but rather it consist of all the teachings doctrines of the apostles and Christ. BTW way the return of Christ is a doctrine. Hence the biggest doctrinal conflict today lies in the return of Christ; after all, it is at hand. The fact that pre-tribulationism is a false doctrine, it is the very obvious apostasy the church has fallen into in these last days. We know it came into existence in the early 1830's or so and spread by means of Darby and Scofield in the mid 1800's. This is the heart of apostasy in the church. Rather than say the unchaste part of the church will be left behind; it is accurate to say, those unsaved pretending to be saved, whom trust in a pre-tribulation rapture as a means of escape will suffer God's strong delusion when God sends it. Those whom are unsaved and remain in this false doctrine, and continue in this error until the delusion occurs will suffer God damnation or eternal Judgment. The saints whom are saved and remain in this error until the strong delusion occurs will most definitely have Great Tribulation as the Church of Thyatira. Notice, the good part of The Church of Thyatira went nowhere; Jesus did not rapture it up. Jesus commanded that part to hold fast until the end and that he would place no burden upon them, since they believed. Once again, they take scripture way out of context and place an imaginary rapture in these verses that is not there.

Concerning Revelation

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. The kings of the earth that commit adultery with Babylon and its churches are drug into their mess.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. This part of the Church of Thyatira is spared God’s judgement for not holding to the false doctrine the other half held to.
25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28And I will give him the morning star.
29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches Clearly God is not telling us he will pre-tribulation rapture anyone from this church; as we have seen the unbelieving idolatrous ones will be cast into Great Tribulation, while the other half is spared and receives no other burden but to endure troubles until the end.

When reading these verses once again, we must consider context as king. They take verse twenty out of context, without realizing the implications. In order to see the time frame and context this falls under we must at least read the verse that are posted here. When we read the entire passage it tells us it is during the Great Tribulation. Just recently, we saw how the pre-tribulation camp takes John 14 grossly out of context in thinking Jesus comes to take them to mansions by an unfounded pre-trib rapture. The Church of Thyatira is seen split in this passage: some are faithful, some are unfaithful. Some saints from Babylon will be cast into great tribulation for following false doctrines linked to Babylonian idol worship (sounds like pre-tribulationism to me) all is peaches and cream and American apple pie for them. Jesus would never make them see tribulation, for such he pours it on them that they might repent and come to the knowledge of the truth. . The other saints from Babylon will not see great tribulation, not because they are ruptured, because clearly they are not ruptured, but rather because they hold fast to the truth. Jesus tells this group he will put no other burden upon them, but to hold fast until he comes; he further tells them to endure until the end. Now the end is the end. We see no saints being pre-tribulation ruptured here at all. All we see is part of the Church of Thyatira being cast into Great Tribulation for not receiving and following the truth in doctrine. Instead they worshipped the doctrine of materialism and Americanism. That is all that John is telling us here. No one is escaping here. I believe once God sends his strong delusion; it will be too late for certain saints to escape Great Tribulation in America. We will be looking for the signs of His coming and perhaps running for shelter. They will be anticipating a false pre-tribulation rapture and be caught right off guard, in the midst of a techno obsessed nation society, which they will not be able to run from or escape when it becomes too late.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]



32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-09-2009 at 03:37 PM..
 
Old 12-09-2009, 04:10 PM
 
20,338 posts, read 15,726,172 times
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For those who already realize that the rapture is pre-Tribulational, and for those who may not be sure, here is a link to one of the pastors that I study under. This link brings up the subject of dispensations. A proper understanding of dispensations orients the believer to his place in God's plan for the ages, and brings about an understanding that the rapture is pre-Tribulational. If you're interested take a look.

The Church. The Rapture. The Tribulation.... - Tree of Life - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
 
Old 12-09-2009, 06:08 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plowman View Post
Amen! I agree with that statement. I wonder how people can be so blind to what the Bible says and believe the man made rapture lies! It's a mystery how I could be blinded by the words of men instead of seeing things clearly through the word of God.

Did you ever notice how the pretribbers just keep grasping at straws & have no scriptural base and what they use for scriptures they never look at in the light of other scripture but are completely happy to take out of context?
Gideon said,

Absolutely, It reminds me of this.10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 06:14 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
When did I ever say that the OT in no way relaltes to the NT. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I said that the OT would not have revealed the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation - the rapture was a mystery.

I look forward to the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright
The point is you seem to think that the OT in no way relates to the NT....and that nothing in the OT could POSSIBLY have been referencing the Rapture. Be sure to watch the video when I post it...you'll be surprised.

Gideon said, I told you she or they do not even know their own doctrine. Raw original pre-tribulationism says the OT is excluded from their doctrine, because of their foolish theory of dispensationalism. It also excludes Mark 13, Luke 21, Mathew 24 except for the parables of where people are carried away, the ones taken and left. I told you they love to cherry pick verses and misconstrue their meanings. We as post-tribulationist prove both OT and NT are accurate and necessary to interpret the Day of the Lord.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,771,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
For those who already realize that the rapture is pre-Tribulational, and for those who may not be sure, here is a link to one of the pastors that I study under. This link brings up the subject of dispensations. A proper understanding of dispensations orients the believer to his place in God's plan for the ages, and brings about an understanding that the rapture is pre-Tribulational. If you're interested take a look.

The Church. The Rapture. The Tribulation.... - Tree of Life - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
Thanks for the link Mike. I'll be checking it out in a few minutes.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 06:50 PM
 
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I thought it a good time to bring up this link to my thread on Dispensations. Anyone who thinks that dispensations is a man made doctrine is in a state of denial. Anyone who understands dispensations, understands that the rapture is pre-Tribulational.

Dispensations In The Bible
 
Old 12-09-2009, 07:09 PM
 
20,338 posts, read 15,726,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Thanks for the link Mike. I'll be checking it out in a few minutes.
You're welcome. You might also check out the link to an old thread of mine that I just posted to this thread. It's on dispensations. It will help people to understand the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture, although I don't remember if I actually brought up the rapture in that thread or not. I think that by and large, the same people who reject dispensations also reject the pre-Trib rapture. But as you'll see from the replys in that thread, some people still didn't get it. Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 07:27 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
The falling away apostasy or error Paul speaks about in II Thes is concerning the timing of the Lord's return. We all know most Christians, false prophets in our churches know about the Gospel. Paul is contending the error concerning the timing of Christ's return in II Thes 2 when he speaks of the apostasy, which not obvious to the average saint; for the apostasy falls in the timeframe of His return. For such a reason he gives grave consequence for those whom remain in the error concerning the timing until the strong delusion of God comes. The consequence is eternal damnation.
An eternal damnation of being a vessel unto dishonour in God's House.

If God will lose nothing ( John 6:38-40 ), and yet false prophets are prophesied by Jesus as coming and leading many astray, what does it testify of but the falling away of the faith now?: 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter, which is said to occur first and then later on the event of that man of perdition will be revealed. If Jesus will destroy that man of perdition at the brightness of His coming and goes on to an event before that time.. even him, after the workings of Satan with sign and lying wonders... that means two judgments and two rebukes at two different times: judgment on the House of God.. then judgment on the world as in destroying the man of perdition at the brightness of His coming.

Quote:
The falling away from faith is seen in most all our churches as they preach a false gospel; the gospel is not merely the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but rather it consist of all the teachings doctrines of the apostles and Christ. BTW way the return of Christ is a doctrine. Hence the biggest doctrinal conflict today lies in the return of Christ; after all, it is at hand. The fact that pre-tribulationism is a false doctrine, it is the very obvious apostasy the church has fallen into in these last days.
I fail to see it as standing apart from the truth which is how I see what apostasy is.

By His grace, I am calling every believer to seek the Lord as their Good Shepherd to be ready now for He shall be coming as the Bridegroom for the bride soon. There is nothing evil about maintaining that relationship with Christ.

Pre tribulational rapturists are not looking for Christ's actual coming, but His appearing as in seeing the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens as will everyone on the earth at the time when all the tribes shall mourn, so therefore those that are ready, whethor they believe in the pre tribulation rapture or not, will not be deceived by any false christ when suddenly they find themsleves changed in a twinkling of an eye and taken from the earth. This is God's promise for the chaste bride:

And just so you should know, not everyone that believes in the pre tribulation rapture will be ready. Proof is here:

Luke 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

So the call now is to watch: do not seek another spirit to receive, even if they say the spirit is the Holy Spirit for He is already in us as promised for coming to and believing in Jesus Christ: Ephesians 1:12-15

Yet some will depart from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. God has to deal with the foolish virgins, whethor you like it or not, for then.. after the event of retrieving the bride, the foolish virgins do have oil for their lamps and are shining finally as a witness of Jesus Christ and nothing else in His name. These be the saints that are salin in Babylon where the voice of teh bride and the bridegroom is heard no more because those doors have been shut and that inheritance can never be had again wherein is the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why else will God wipe the tears from the eyes of the saints coming out of the great tribulation? To perform the miracle on them to get over the loss of their frst inheritance as in missing out on the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Only God can cause the increase as I know I cannot convince you, brother.
 
Old 12-09-2009, 08:42 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I thought it a good time to bring up this link to my thread on Dispensations. Anyone who thinks that dispensations is a man made doctrine is in a state of denial. Anyone who understands dispensations, understands that the rapture is pre-Tribulational.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/771235-dispensations-bible.html
GIDEON SAID,The Bible clearly tells us in Romans 11 that there is no such thing as dispensationalism. So in order for you to understand their doctrine, which is not in scripture, you must be as one of their annointed ones, understanding their dispensation or foolish imaginations inwhich they have.

So what they are saying is they are worthy of a pre-trib rapture, but Israel is not; she is not deserving for her unbelief in Christ, the Messiah. Hence they are stuck here but not the church; no Jesus is going to fly them away. Even in light of the fact that scripture says nothing of the sorts, but only speaks of a post-tribulation return of Christ. We shot Down John 14 for them and Revelation 2 for Enow. NoW what else do they want. Ok bring it on. Hmmm they must be careful not to boast lest they be broken from the family tree and their branches removed. It wont be a pretribulation rapture removing them either.



Romans 11


1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-09-2009 at 09:10 PM..
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