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Old 12-11-2009, 08:14 PM
 
4,212 posts, read 2,079,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Since you've got THAT one all figured out...............Shiloh, don't play games, it's too late in the hour, O.K.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDgO9Eambo
Well I am not sure what you mean by playing games? I do not see how your response answers my questions - Oh well!

 
Old 12-11-2009, 10:14 PM
 
392 posts, read 325,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
You all know I am a Full Pret, but I wanted to know how the rapture is to take place with the saints first being taken away, when the scripture says the tares are gathered first, burned, then the wheat is placed in the barn?

Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

Please don't sock me in the nose, just asking a straightforward question about the view.


Irene said,
Because Matt 13:30 is speaking of the final judgment.
No it is speaking of the only harvest we see in scripture. The harvest is of the kingdom of heaven. THe kingdom is within all the saints. There is only one kingdom. Jesus told us the kingdom of God is within us. So now you want to tell us there are two kingdoms two, Correct. It is quite obvious you know nothing about the kingdom of heaven, the mysteries are not revealed to you. That make you different.

Mathew 13
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 
Old 12-11-2009, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Who said there are two kingdoms? Only one from what I see.

Now why would the harvest leave out another harvest of the elect somewhere in between?
 
Old 12-12-2009, 03:16 AM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 2,600,811 times
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Why do some of you make everything so COMPLICATED? Your posts make me absolutely dizzy and honestly I don't have time to read all this. My point is simply this...don't make the rapture a doctrine but follow the words of Jesus when he directs us to Love one another. Chill out bro...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gidieon said.
What is your point because you make no sense at all. To say the timing of the rapture is irrelvevent is foolish. Christ, Paul, Mathew, Mark, Luke and many others tell us it is very important to know the timing and to let no one deceive us. It is a waste of time to be in a church that holds the wrong position concerning the timing of our Lord's return. Period.

Now if you want an expoistion on I Thes 4 here it is.


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Gideon said,
Now we can cover these two verses. Apparently either the church was inquisitive about the dead in Christ and what would happen to them when Jesus would return or Paul just wanted to inform us of what would happen. So the main emphasis is the dead in Christ returning with Christ when he comes back to earth. I would challenge anyone to show us a pre-tribulational rapture here. This is an impossible task, as it is not there, as the pre-tribulation camps vehemently claim it is. Now remember, there is a danger in claiming this error as seen in II Thes 2; it is dangerous to have pleasure in unrighteousness or in error concerning the second coming. Paul further tells us and comforts us to not have any concern for our dead loved ones in Christ. They are not as those that have no hope, as their hope is in Christ.

Verse 14 begins to bring all this together. Paul tells us, "Hey if you believe Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring back with Him. Notice Paul says nothing about taking them away, but rather he tells us God the Son will bring them back with Himself. Wither so ever Jesus goes they are with Him. As he returns to earth, in order to establish his Kingship he brings all the dead saints back with him, from Adam to the last Martyr in Revelation. We see that clearly in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc. Yet pre-tribulationist claim these words bring with Him, mean Jesus is going to fly them away. That is very inaccurate as we will see.


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleeps in Jesus will God bring with him.

Notice the only ones Jesus brings anywhere are the dead not the living on earth. He brings them with himself from heaven so they can be resurrected from the dead. The word bring in the Greek is "ago"; it means to lead, carry, lead along, bring. So Jesus is bringing them not taking as pre-tribulationism claim falsely again. They further even claim he is bringing us all to heaven, the living saints on earth and the dead ones currently in Heaven. This is so inaccurate; it could not be more inaccurate.

Take note how Paul begins verse 14, with the death and resurrection of Christ. This is the pattern that the dead in Christ shall follow also. They return with Him, as he "Brings them with" in order for them to receive their dead bodies resurrected when Christ is glorified in His saints at his return. We will see that very clearly also.

Thus far Paul tells us not to worry about the dead in Christ; God, Christ will bring them with Him at his returns. We know since they come with Him they are in Heaven, and there is much scripture to back that. He reminds us of the power of the resurrection in Christ. We have also learned that pre-tribulationists misrepresent the word "bring" grossly, and present it in opposite fahion of its true meaning, with the word "'take away" instead, thus falsely claiming Jesus is to take them away to heaven. There is no taking anywhere in this chapter at all. Neither is there a secret hidden second coming of Jesus that occurs at the beginning of the Tribulation or anytime after the Ascention as they falsely proclaim loudly that Jesus could have returned anytime, unexpectedly after the Ascention. Now let's carry on to the next verses.

This we are telling you by God's word and authority, the living saints present on earth, remaining until Jesus returns, will not prevent the dead saints in any way. Remember Paul told us of the death and resurrection of Christ; now he brings it to their personal level. We see Jesus descends with the voice ofthe Archangel, a Loud Shout, and the Trumpet of God, the last trumpet of revelation as Paul has previously given us the remainder of the details in other verses as these. John, Jesus, and many others have also given more detail of this single event. Remember, God gives us different details of the same event throughout scripture, by other scriptures and varying personalities to shed all the details he wanted us to realize about a single event.

Notice Jesus is descending down to earth. We are caught up to meet him at His descent. The scriptures read the Lord shall descend. There is zero indication here that Jesus comes secretly, without notice to steal the church away to heaven, in order for them to escape persecution. There is zero detail given of any ascent as pretibulationism falsely claims there is. It is evident that He proceeds in a downward motion, with a shout, the voice ofthe archangel, and the last trumpet of Revelation. This all occurs at the end ofthe GT, not seven years earlier as pre-tribulationists falsely proclaim, loudly.


50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

We see the same event in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc.

HERE it is in Revelation 11 again

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time ofthe dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

15For this we say unto you by the word ofthe Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming ofthe Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice ofthe archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We will save verse 17 for last, as it is the best one that proves Jesus comes down to earth with the Greek word apentesis. I forgot to mention the word coming here is Parousia or arrival. So it is the same event we see in II Thes 1 and 2. We will see that very clearly in verse 15 the coming is "Parousia".

Now we can bring this section to a conclusion with verse 17. This is exactly the same event we see in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, II Thes 2, Revelation 10, 11, 19, 1, 20 etc. All the accounts are given to shed various details of the same event. Notice II Thes 2 mentions our gathering together unto him at his coming, arrival or Parousia. We see the same event described in a like fashion in I Thes 4. The pre-tribulationists claim they are two separated events, taking place at least seven years apart. We see nothing in scripture to demonstrate both are separate events; scripture only proves them to be one. Not only does the terminology prove them to be one event but the words also disprove any secret or hidden coming, and the words disprove Christ taking the church away. Finally the words disprove we fly away anywhere. Verse 17 proves these facts even further. Notice we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, as he descends. The word meet, is apentesis; it is no coincidence that Paul used this word here. Paul added this concept with its historical meaning. What this word means is as a dignitary paid his official visit to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens going out to meet the dignitary at his parousia, and escorting him in the remaining part or final stage of his Journey was referred to as the apentesis. So as they saw the dignitary arriving at his parousia, they went out to meet him and greet him, then the citizens would proceed to escort him in to the city. The same word is used here. As Jesus descends, we meet or apentesis him in the air in order to escort him down to earth. This is precisely what is recorded by Paul in scripture. We clearly do not fly away as the pre-tribulation dogma has eroneously has claimed; we meet Him the in air, in order to continue His descent with Him down to earth. There is nothing in scripture or this passage to disprove what Paul has clearly stated.


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


NOW,how is that for explaining I Thes 4; hope you can grasp it.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 08:37 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
Why do some of you make everything so COMPLICATED? Your posts make me absolutely dizzy and honestly I don't have time to read all this.
That's a real good question.....it's annoying and just plain ridiculous.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
Reputation: 58115
I found another good site that explains the Rapture and what will happen very well. Be sure to scroll down to read the whole article.

www.raptureprophecy.com
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:40 AM
 
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Revelation 3:10, the Big Misconception

Many pre-tribulation theologians claim this scripture as their key, proof text that God has promised the faithful Christian that He would keep them from the tribulation. There are a few problems with that concept, which comes as no surprise, as they strive to reach for straws to find any ideal or concept in which they can pervert to present their fallacy, the pre-tribulation rapture.


1. The tribulation is never referred to as an “hour” in the Word of God; it is always referred to as a “week”. (Daniel 9:24-27)
2. Since when does “temptation” and “tribulation” have the same meaning? They don't. Neither does this word translate as such.
3. This verse does not constitute or equal a pre-tribulation rapture causing the saints to escape tribulation on earth.
4. The terminologies do not equate to a physical removal of the church to avoid tribulation, but rather equal a God given sustenance to endure what is known as the hour of temptation or the hour of trial, to try them that dwell on the earth (in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments).


Now I will be the first to admit, Revelation 3:10 still remains somewhat of a mystery to all of us in the entire world. Though, we know one thing for sure; God is going to sustain the church in the midst of temptation to keep them from falling as the "earth dwellers" will fall. Now remember that phrase, "earth dwellers", or "them that dwell on the earth". It plays an important role later in demonstrating the most likely application for this verse, which we will cover later. Now we are covering the meaning of it. I can discuss with you and explain mostly what it means, but I cannot tell of its entire application; no one can today but God. We have not un-canned this one application yet. Anyone that tells you they know what this trial resuts in entirely is not being honest. Certainly, the pre-tribulation camp is way off target as they replace escape from temptation for escape from Great Tribulation. Further they misconstrue the meanings of its terminologies. So we know for a fact, that they are merely guessing at its meanings, and applications, presenting the guesses as facts (as they do with Revelation 2:20, Mark 13, John 14 etc) and take them completely out of context. Remember context is king. I can tell you for certainty the context; God will spare His elect, the church from the temptation that is to befall the world during this one hour. The temptation will not be tribulation, nor will it a physical removal of the church during the tribulation time. The church will be present on earth when they are kept from the hour of temptation that will come on all "them which Dwell upon the earth".

I can tell you for certain, it does not mean, constitute, support, or express a pre-tribulation rapture for the church or an escape as meaning to be removed from tribulation. That goes against the doctrines, principles, and teachings of God and the apostles in scriptures. So for pre-tribulationists to tell you it means they are out of here; they simply are telling you a lie. Even the terminologies and their meanings do not support that. For we read God will keep us throughout the Hour of temptation and not out of or a physical removal from the tribulation. The scriptures teach God will sustain us through it and not pull us out of it.

The word tribulation is never used as to mean temptation in the Bible, anywhere, not even here. It means a trial sent by God to tempt one's character, an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances. The Greek word here for temptation is "peirasmos" and it carries the same meaning as when God tempted Pharaoh and he hardened His heart. The hardening of the heart is the key. Once one hardens their heart towards God, as pharaoh did; God is forced to try them with temptation as a means of chastisement, futher hardening their hearts more.. This drives them further into rebellion against God. Just picture Pharaoh and this is the same concept we see here. They are tempted as pharaoh and harden their hearts even more as a result of being unable to resist the temptation.

Now we see clearly, without a shadow of a doubt, that the word temptation does not mean tribulation here. The two are remotely different. The tribulation of Satan is only reserved for the righteous during the tribulation period. God's wrath does not come until the end of the Great Tribulation. God allows Satan's tribulation to chastise his children perhaps in some cases and to bring them back to repentance. He allows Satan's tribulation in other places to edify the saints. This is the primary reason part of the church is to go through tribulation, for purification and repentence. Notice I did not say salvation as the act of suffering tribulation is not a means of salvation; we are saved by Grace. The church by no means is a chaste bride today in God's standards, but she will be when the fires of tribulation are done with her.

Here is the translation as it goes for Revelation 3:10. Because you have kept, tereo, guarded and reserved, the word of my patience, a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance, I also will tereo, guarded and reserved to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to undergo something
, keep thee from, ek out of, from, by, away from, the hour of temptation, peirasmos
1) An enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) An internal temptation to sin
a) Of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell, katoikeō, metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it upon the earth.

So, in essence what God is telling us is that God will guard us throughout, preserve us, protect us from the hour of temptation, while the ones that are attached to the earthly system, "them that dwell on the earth" will be subject to it and unable to resist it. The Bible in no way says God will remove us from earth here. Nor does it say that the word temptation is the equivalent to tribulation. As we can see, the pre-tribulation camp has enjoyed cherry picking again, as they mention the word ek, but deny the fact that tereo is there to carry the meaning of ek. Tereo is there to demonstrate what God will preserve us out of and not what God will remove us out of; this is the key; as is the fact that tribulation does not equal temptation.

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Pre-tribulationists like to attempt to use the word Eck which means out of in the Greek, but they lie and omit tereo. They, the train pre-tribulationists seem to have pleasure in error. It is like they have to try and prove you wrong, but it is not us they contend with, but rather it is God. Clearly the words being used here must be considered in their entire context. If you look at the passage the meaning comes to life.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:54 AM
 
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Revelation 3:10, The Big Misconception, Part II

Revelation 3:10, The Application to the Meaning

We have already demonstrated earlier that the meaning of Revelation 3:10 is not tribulation, but rather it is temptation as it is worded; nor is it a physical removal from tribulation by rather a sustaining power granted by God to the church for the purpose of enduring temptation. Ok, now then, what is the scripture telling us in this verse and passage you might ask? What is the purpose and its application to us now that we know what it means? Well, the scriptures tell us it will be an hour of temptation that will try everyone "that dwells on this earth", or the hour will tempt everyone that is attached to the materialism on this earth and have concluded this is their final place of abode, or dwelling place. The saints are not of this world, because we know Jesus has a better one for us, hence we are pilgrims and strangers in this land and system that currently exist under the rule of Satan, but his time is short.

If one concentrates really hard, they can come up with the most thought of scenario in which a single event will bring a temptation to the world, worldwide in its entirety. I would venture to say many Christians whom study scripture can think of what this may be. We see in Revelation 12 the accuser of the brethren, The Devil is cast out of heaven; hence he can no longer go before God in heaven and accuse the brethren. You may recall the devil went before God and accused Job. He still continues to do so. However when he is cast out from heaven and is no longer allowed or able to do that things change dramatically. Satan becomes empowered with great wrath in the last three and half years of his reign first of all, because he knows his time is short. Secondly, he can no longer accuse the brethren. Finally, the saints receive immense power and guidance from God since Satan can no longer stand between them and God. So it is kind of like the communication channel between God and his saints is really intensified at this point. So the tribulation brings pain but it also brings deliverance by God and communion between him and the saints. So we see now is come Salvation, power, and the kingdom of Christ. Even though Satan's wrath is present on earth, the saints share a wealth of blessing in God's salvation, power, and the kingdom of our Christ. Everything Christ has told us about Salvation, his power, and kingdom now becomes magnified in the face of adversity.

I would venture to say, you could think of a single event that would fit that “hour of temptation”. Wow, you sure are smart; I knew you would guess “the mark of the beast”. I believe the hour of temptation comes on the world when Satan is cast from heaven as seen in Revelation 12. Here is where he enters the holy of Holies and claims to be God. Many will be tempted to receive him as their Messiah. As we see in II Thes 2, many pre-tribulationist promoters, whom were not saved, will be tempted to worship Satan as though he were the Christ. God shall send them strong delusion because they received not the love of the truth, so strong that they would believe the lie that Satan is God.

Just imagine, you and your family are hungry, perhaps a child will be ill and
might need medical attention, or it could be a common necessities we are use to, you are now doing without. Receiving the mark will be the biggest temptation you have ever been subject to if you are not a saint. We will be kept from the temptation of worshiping the beast, receiving the mark, or following Satan's deceivableness as those that perish do. Wouldn’t it be nice to be kept from that hour of temptation? Well, to God’s faithful, they will get to breeze right on by that particular temptation. How, you might ask?

God did not promise to take you out of this world when trials and tribulation would arise but he did promise to keep you from temptation which you would not be able to bear. The saints whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will escape the temptation. We know we have a place in God's kingdom; this corrupted earth has no appeal to us. However the earth dwellers or those that dwell on the earth are secure with all the materialism and benefits that satisfy the flesh. We can overcome Satan's wrath, because we are indwelled by God power. Jesus' original prayer was that God would not remove us from the world but keep us through the troubles of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.God cannot go against his words or prayers as recorded in scripture; we must conclude since there is not any absolute value for pre-tribulationism in scripture it is a man made doctrine. History clearly proves that.

Interestingly enough, we see throughout Revelation, that the earth dwellers names are not written in the lambs book of life. There are three groups of people on the earth during the Great Tribulation: they are the saints whose names are written in Lambs book of life, slain from the foundation of the world; since the world was founded God knew whom everyone would be. There are those whom are sealed, the 144,000 national Hebrews or Hipiru people, 12,000 from every tribe. We also see those whom dwell on the earth whos names are not written in the lambs book of life; these worship the beast and his image. Finally we have the earth dwellers whom apparently have not made a decision to choose Satan or God and God cries out to them one more time in Revelation 14 with the angel proclaiming the everlasting gospel to them. It appear that they are part of the first earth dwellers and most likely do not repent, ever.

It appears that carrying the gospel to the ends of the earth can only be completed by the angels. This gospel of the kingdom must first be proclaimed amoungst all nations, then shall the end come. We see that clearly in Revelation 14. To say it has been taken to every tribe, touge, kindred and nation as of today is foolish; as there are many tribes out there which have not heard. Only God knows whom has not received it. Our knowledge of man's existence in limited. God's is not. It is vain to say, the Gospel has been taken to all corners of the earth so it is time for Jesus to come and fly us away. We see in Revelation 14 an angel completes the task man could not do alone. Further we see the task being completed at the very end of the Great Tribulation in Chapter 14 after Babylon is destroy. This is just more proof that Christ does not come until the end of the GT as Jesus tells us the Gospel must be taken to all peoples before the end comes and before he returns. We also see him thrusting his angels down to gather his elect. He is the only one that can control the sickle which gathers the grapes for the wrath of God's winepress. Both are gathered and seperated. We even see Christ standing on Mt. Zion. As recorded in the OT, the earth splits for the wrath of God's winepress to be prepared and it literally crushes the enimies of the Gospel and their blood raises up to the horses bridal's level for the space of about 300 miles in the Valley of Jehosephat. Cearly Revelation 14 is a crear depiction of many of the events that will occur at the return of Christ and the end of the world, as we currently know the world to be.

When we roll back to Revelation 13 we see the divisions being made, between the saints and them that dwell upon the earth, whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life. And all the world wondered after the beast. Those that worship the beast worship him in obescence, and knell to his idol, literally. They accept the mark of the beast in their foreheads or in their right hands. Now it is very crucial to note that the beast makes war against the saints. If the saints are flown away to heaven, how is it that he makes war with them, kills many of them, and overcomes them, in general terms. In revelation 12 why does God warn the world of Satan coming down with great wrath after he is cast from heaven, because he knows the time is short for him? God is telling us clearly this is the time for Satan's wrath not God's; just more proof of the foolishness of pre-tribulationism. The answer are simple, they have not flown anywhere, but remain on earth for the last 3.5 years of Satan's rule on earth. We see the other group, all that dwell on the earth whose names are not written in The Lamb's Book of Life; this group worships the beast. They BTW, are the same group we see in Revelatoin 3:10 whom will not overcome the temptation to worship the beast. Those that keep the word of God's testimony will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and not be subject to God's temptation.

Now remember I said, we know the meanings of the terminologies for sure. The application to it being the temptation of the beast is somewhat speculative but fits very well. We know it is not the rapture because the terminologies do not fit. The word temptation does not mean persecution as we discussed, but it means temptation and that alone. The depiction of Revelation 3:10 shows us God keeping us throughout the time of trial or temptation while we are present on earth. We conclude that with the word tereo and ek. It means God will preserve us throughout this time, protect, guard, etc. So we know the meaning but currently can only speculate on the application.

Another possibility is seen in Revelation 14 when God brings the destruction of a Babylon, and those that dwell on the earth are tempted to come against God after her destruction. 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. The ones that dwell upon the earth, whose names are not written in the Lambs book of Life will not worship God. We the saints are already with him as he has landed on Mt Zion already. This may be the hour being refered to also in Revelation 3:10.

We know for sure it is not the tribulation; simply because the two do not match at all. We are preserve through the temptation, and not removed from the tribulation. It is really that simple. We know one thing for sure, it has something to do with the mark of the beast and being tempted to accept it. Or it has something to do with God's wrath being poured at the end of the GT in one hour. Revelaton 3:10 most certainly does not mean a removal from tribulation; as to be flown away in a pretribulation rapture. To say that is what it means demonstrates an inability or unwillingness to see the true meaning of this verse. We see a hardness to God's truth in scripture also; and an attitude of it should be my way instead of God's way or what is clearly written.



4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-12-2009 at 11:05 AM..
 
Old 12-12-2009, 11:13 AM
 
392 posts, read 325,963 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
Why do some of you make everything so COMPLICATED? Your posts make me absolutely dizzy and honestly I don't have time to read all this. My point is simply this...don't make the rapture a doctrine but follow the words of Jesus when he directs us to Love one another. Chill out bro...
Gideon said,
On one hand you said I did a poor job of explaining I Thes 4 . Now that I have expounded it to you very clearly, you are too lazy to read it carefully. Hey donot gripe at me any longer. I was just trying to help you grasp the true meanings of I THes 4 and proving to you there is no ascention of Christ here only a descention. There is no pretribulation rapture here only reigning Christ coming back as a helenistic dignatary. With that being said, it is your choice to not read a few paragraph that make absolute sense.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 12:50 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
Reputation: 58115
I'm posting this again because there was so much written garbage that came after.

I found another good site that explains the Rapture and what will happen very well. Be sure to scroll down to read the whole article.

www.raptureprophecy.com
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